View Full Version : Smallpox & WMD Planning
Well, just back from a planning meeting for the west end of Nebraska on mass vaccination and WMD response (I am the State Public Health Dept. Medical Director for the Panhandle). Some very interesting info that I have not seen in public distribution, which I will cough up as time allows. Think up your questions and we can do some rumor control also. Good info posted here the last few days. Later.
will the government force the sick, elderly and young children to get the shots... I would like the rumor mill to stop!!!
Ah, where to begin. The material posted on the site here is good, factual and avoiding sensationalism or hysteria.
Interesting story: Several weeks ago a patient walked into the ER of a large midwest hospital covered in vaccinia type blisters. An immediate disaster plan was initiated and the entire hospital was sealed and quarantined. Stat labs showed that this was chicken pox virus in an HIV patient who was already severely compromised on his immune response. The pictures look exactly like some SP patient from Africa 40 years ago! Count on it happening again!
As a brief summary, here are the facts that I have corroborated to my satisfaction:
1. Regarding smallpox as a disease, it is a virus easily spread via person to person contact primarily through mucus membrane, respiratory, or skin contact - thus close contacts with a patient are most likely to be at risk. It is only spread via humans, not birds, animals, etc. It can take up to 18 days to present symptoms after infection. About 1 in 3 close contacts will catch the disease. Death rate from NATURAL SP is around 30% what the death rate from weaponized SP is unknown.
2. Regarding the vaccine, current vaccines are derived from the original stocks, which were left over from before. These were animal derived, primarily calves as the host. A newer, perhaps somewhat safer, vaccine hosted in eggs will be available in late 2003, more likely 2004. Using current full strength vaccine stock the vaccine death rate is expected to be about 3/1,000,000. Using a 5:1 dilution of current vaccine to stretch it, the death rate will be a little less, no one knows how much. The severe illness rate for both is expected to be about 50/1,000,000. The minor illness rate, pain, flu like symptoms, low grade fever, etc. is expected to be about 100%, as it is for typhoid and some other vaccinations. Thus expect 3 deaths for every 1,000,000 vaccinations and 300,000 deaths for every 1,000,000 infections (not exposures). Got it?
3. There is essentially no residual immunity from the vaccinations you got as a kid. For those vaccinated more recently in the military, say in the 80's, you may have some left, unknown how much.
4. Current vaccination plans call for two entirely separate issues to be addressed. One is pre-event vaccination, the other outbreak response.
5. Pre-event vaccination plans, such as have been drawn up and discussed in the media recently call for an initial core of military and health care workers to be vaccinated starting in January. These groups would form the nucleus of public health response strike teams so that should an outbreak occur these individuals could be sent to the area to initiate assessment and care, establish a vaccination distribution plan, etc. These are being developed state by state, each broken down by regions, etc., to get a "vaccine SWAT unit" ready to go. After this initial primary core is established, a secondary vaccination effort will be done to vaccinate additional health and emergency service workers and their families. After this, the third go round is designed for the public, mostly after the newer vaccine is available.
6. Outbreak response would be initiated if there was a confirmed SP case, as a "ring" of vaccinations, first the household members of the patient, then the work/school contacts and their households, then the community subject to airborne spread. You have about 100 hours after being infected (not exposed) with SP to receive benefit from the vaccine. Most of the ring plan would be done for community members who had the potential to be infected by airborne spread or unknown contact exposure. These would be done at mass vaccination stations very much like we do for meningitis outbreaks at colleges or for swine flu a few years back. These stations will have screening to eliminate those who should not receive the vaccine, then an educational video (30 minutes) about SP & the vaccine risk/benefit, then a questionnaire to fill out to again screen for those who should not get the vaccination, then a review of the questionnaire and a "kick out" of any potential problems to on-site medical personnel for review, and only then the vaccination after clearance. The mass vaccination sites and teams have already been designated in most states and are being set up now. Much of this is confidential for the moment simply to allow us to get our ducks in a row before public comment, but I expect my plan to be in place in a few weeks and then have a public info session and practice drill. Other places, who knows.
7. A few misc. important points:
- Vaccination for everyone except the military is VOLUNTARY. Your particular job description in health care or emergency services may put you in a group that is deemed high risk for exposure but even these groups are asking for volunteers at the moment. Even after an outbreak, vaccination will still be VOLUNTARY except for the military. Despite the stories propagated by the paranoid schizos who need medication there are no plans for involuntary vaccination. Think about it - even if you used all of the resources of all of the military and police in the country after an outbreak, do you really think you can force 280 million people to be vaccinated in a 100 hour window? Or for pre-event planning, how are you going to keep track of who has not received it? 25% of the people in my county don't even have an address in the 911 computer. The problem is getting people that want and need it vaccinated in time, not the other way around. Anybody that doesn't want it just stay home.
- Remember that SP is primarily spread by close contact with an infected individual. Simply staying home and avoiding public contact for 18 days after an outbreak will protect you. The chance of getting infected by airborne spread, as long as you were not in the immediate area of an airborne dispersal, is very unlikely.
- For the general public there will be a very limited amount of vaccine that will be available this spring. To get it you will have to enrolled in an investigational trail program & go through a bunch of hassle. I recommend ***** against ***** the general public being vaccinated at this time. Just wait and see how things shake out.
- For pre-exposure prevention, the following should NOT get the vaccine because the risk of related complications is higher than the risk of getting the disease: immunocompromised, cancer patients, those taking steroids, organ transplant patients, lupus/SLE, chemo/radiation tx, eczema, atopic dermatitis, impetigo, burns, shingles, chicken pox, pregnant, allergic to polymyxin/neomycin/streptomycin/tetracycline, less than 1 year old.
- For those who HAVE A CONFIRMED EXPOSURE to SP, everyone, regardless of medical condition, age, pregnancy, etc. is recommended to get the vaccination because the risk of the disease (30% death rate) is greater than the risk of complications.
- So, what am I doing? I am getting the vaccination now, 'cause that's my job. I've had it twice before (kid + military) and for me it's no big thing. My wife, a nurse on the response team, is also getting it. My kids are not at the moment, I will just exercise care to make sure that they don't get a contact exposure off of us after we are vaccinated.
8. Note that there is a lot of grumbling about all the effort put into this planning - and it is a lot! It is important to keep in perspective that this planning can be used not only for smallpox but also to address:
- All bioterrorism materials
- Natural diseases, influenza, meningitis, measles, encephalitis, cholera
- NBC & HazMat exposures
- Natural disaster response
That's how we are looking at it - a chance to brainstorm, establish, and practice a flexible disaster plan, have needed medical supplies in place, upgrade our EMS training, lots of stuff - encourage your local folks to do so to.
9. I have some people tell me that they will never get the vaccine, no matter what. Fine, stay home, make sure you are stocked up on emergency supplies which you should have anyway, you can always change your mind later. Get on with your life and quit obsessing about it! The absolute risk of a SP event is very low, and almost non-existent if you live outside the dozen or so major cities. The vaccine risk is also low. Think of it this way: your chance of being kidnapped by the Very Bad Person's Liberation Front is very, very low. But, say they did kidnap you and have you in front of a firing squad for execution. There are two machine guns there, one is loaded randomly with 300,000 rounds live ammo and 700,000 rounds blanks, the other 3 rounds of live and 999,997 rounds of blanks. They are going to shoot 1/3 of the load at you, but you get to choose which gun they use, knowing which one is which. The chance of you getting kidnapped is very, very low, so why worry about it now. But if you do get kidnapped which are you going to choose…
Everbody start asking specific questions and also I'd love to hear the rumors you are collecting.
Reasonable Rascal
12-17-02, 21:29
For the sake of rumor control only I offer the following gleaned from the 'net.
Rumor #1: Smallpox vaccine has been contaminated by the SV40 virus. This in addition to known contamination of the Salk (polio) vaccine. This was why routine vaccination was halted in 1972. SV40 (Simian Virus Type 40) is also known as Monkeypox.
Rumor #2: The vaccine is the same as the virus itself. No difference. In fact it is just as likely to develop into full-blown disease.
Rumor #3: The pharmaceutical companies are demanding that the bioterrorism vaccines they produce be exempt from normal federal safety and efficacy standards. This is because they have no faith in the efficacy of their own vaccine and believe the rate of actual full-blown infection will be high.
There are other rumors of course but these will suffice for the moment. Perhaps other members can add to the list based on their observations.
RR
NurseRatchet
12-18-02, 10:56
Brought to you by folks who have been off their antipsychotics too long...
Rumor #4: Despite all information to the contrary, rumor is still spreading that vaccination will be forced for all (at gunpoint if necessary), that no one will be excused for medical reasons.
Rumor #5: At the first hint of an SP outbreak, large numbers of people will be rounded up and interred in camps.
Rumor #6: Mortality from the SP vaccine will exceed mortality from SP outbreak. Reason for vaccination is to decrease population.
NR
Rumor #1: Smallpox vaccine has been contaminated by the SV40 virus. This in addition to known contamination of the Salk (polio) vaccine. This was why routine vaccination was halted in 1972. SV40 (Simian Virus Type 40) is also known as Monkeypox.
***** Monkeypox was not identified until 1970, long, long after cell culture stocks had been established for vaccine production. Contamination seems doubtful. Interestingly the smallpox and monkeypox virons look identical under electron microscopy, and can only be differentiated by genetic analysis such as PCR. Monkeypox is much less severe than smallpox, much harder to transfer person to person, and has a much lower fatality rate. Vaccination protects against most known ‘poxs. Vaccination was stopped because there had been no cases of SP in the US since 1949 and the risk of the vaccine was greater than the risk of no disease in 20+ years!
Rumor #2: The vaccine is the same as the virus itself. No difference. In fact it is just as likely to develop into full-blown disease.
***** The vaccine is an attenuated “weakened” strain of Vaccinia virus, not smallpox virus. The SP vaccine contains NO smallpox! You will not develop SP, and you are not as likely to develop full blown Vaccinia disease, period. The vaccine has been used throughout the 80’s and 90’s for lab workers using orthopox virus family bugs in research (including SP) and none of them have developed serious problems or died.
Rumor #3: The pharmaceutical companies are demanding that the bioterrorism vaccines they produce be exempt from normal federal safety and efficacy standards. This is because they have no faith in the efficacy of their own vaccine and believe the rate of actual full-blown infection will be high.
***** The companies want they same protection they have for releasing investigation and “orphan” drugs without full FDA approval for compassionate use – scum sucking bottom feeding lawyers out to make money at the expense of the victims and medical care providers who are doing their best in an imperfect system with imperfect tools. Lawyers are already discussing how to institute class action law-suits due to SP vaccine complications – and we haven’t even started giving it yet.
Rumor #4: Despite all information to the contrary, rumor is still spreading that vaccination will be forced for all (at gunpoint if necessary), that no one will be excused for medical reasons.
***** Please explain how 600,000 police officers and 2,000,000 military, assuming they all cooperated which they wouldn’t, can force 280,000,000 people to do anything. By not excusing medical contraindicated people you would guarantee significant numbers of complications and engender the complete collapse of the health care system. The medical profession has been bombarded for a year now with education about who NOT to give the vaccine to. Do you think every physician in the US would suddenly comply with an order to give it to those who shouldn’t get it? Get a life.
Rumor #5: At the first hint of an SP outbreak, large numbers of people will be rounded up and interred in camps.
***** Thus guaranteeing an outrageous SP outbreak. You want people apart, not together. Better to make everybody stay at home. What point would there be to this? 2,600,000 are going to make 280,000,000 do what? Get a life.
Rumor #6: Mortality from the SP vaccine will exceed mortality from SP outbreak. Reason for vaccination is to decrease population.
***** I’ve had it twice, still kicking, as are a lot of military and lab personnel who have had it. If you want to decrease population you want to use something that will result in a gradual increase in the natural death rate, such as oncogene promotion to increase the cancer rate over a decade, or use a DNA virus linked to certain genetic traits to target a specific population group. Using a pox virus would be nonspecific and result in a disproportionate amount of deaths in the high value spectrum of the population. Get a life.
Rumor #7: Vaccinia started out as cowpox, but in an effort to strengthen/weaken the virus, it was mixed with and passed through cowpox, variola (smallpox), horsepox, and camelpox. You can do a search for camelpox on TB2K for links describing this. Vaccinia is a virus that is not natural and never appeared in nature. The newly licensed vaccination being used now for the military, according to public articles, is Dryvax, from the '40s thru '80s. Vaccination can cause a vaccinia outbreak in immunocompromised persons. To know EXACTLY the composition of the vaccine, write to the CDC. Then you would have to test it via your own private lab arrangement to be certain. Vaccinia is no longer cowpox. DNA sequencing shows it is most closely related to camelpox. Vaccinia is a man-made hybrid. Repeat, vaccinia is NOT, repeat NOT, cowpox. Vaccinia was used to create pox on cows but VACCINIA IS NOT COWPOX. The articles stating that vaccinia is cowpox are inaccurate.
***** This whole statement is a mess of inaccurate & conflicting material. Vaccinia and cowpox are genetically different virus’. Vaccinia is a natural virus, first used by Jenner in 1796, isolated from cows and horses, but different from cowpox – it is unsure if this is a cowpox mutation, a horsepox that crossed over, or what. Interestingly, vaccinia virus is no longer found in nature. Camelpox is the closest to variola (SP), not vaccinia. All SP vaccine in the US and Canada is derived from the New York Board of Health strain as purified cell cultures dating back to the 40’s (hence the low probability of contamination with things that were not even discovered or imported for research until the 70’s). There are 4 different manufacturer’s vaccines floating around, they differ little except that one has to be stored at a slightly lower temp. before it is reconstituted. Dryvax is from Wyeth & Aventis, No-Name is from Acambis/Baxter. The Dryvax is from the original calf lymph cell cultures, the other is from tissue cultures of the Dryvax strain. Vaccination can cause vaccinia disease in the immunocompromised – that’s why you don’t give it to them! Duh! See above. Vaccinia is being used as the transfer agent for a variety of vaccine research. Interestingly, it is the host and transfer agent for an oral rabies vaccine to be used in wildlife, by spreading in food pellets.
Keep 'em coming!
Reasonable Rascal
12-19-02, 17:05
Rumor #8: Anyone who touches the vaccinated area on someone's arm or a contaminated bandage can spread the vaccinia virus. People who scratch the area and then touch their eyes can sometimes make themselves blind.
Rumor #9: Vaccines in general are science experiments. You catch the flue from flu vaccine and mumps from the mumps vaccine. Smallpox will be no different.
Rumor #10: A strong immune system is your best protection. Build up your immunity by eating right and cutting out the bad habits and you risk little chance of catching smallpox.
Rumor #8: Anyone who touches the vaccinated area on someone's arm or a contaminated bandage can spread the vaccinia virus. People who scratch the area and then touch their eyes can sometimes make themselves blind.
***** Somewhat true. The pus can pass on the disease until the lesion is scabbed over. The vaccinia virus can survive about 24 hours in the air, on objects, etc., thus contaminated bandages are a potential source of infection. The site needs to be kept covered with an occlusive dressing like a Telfa pad to keep the pustule fluid from soaking through the clothing. If you have a conjunctival or corneal abrasion/injury and the pustule fluid gets into the eye, infection can result with corneal scar formation, very much like an occular herpes infection. Don't squirt pus in your eye.
Rumor #9: Vaccines in general are science experiments. You catch the flue from flu vaccine and mumps from the mumps vaccine. Smallpox will be no different.
***** All medicine, traditional or scientific, is an experiment. All medicines for any particular individual are very much a science experiment unless you have specific testing for allergy, genetic incompatability, etc. You do not get the flu from the flu vaccine, mumps from the mumps vaccine, etc. Coincidental illness within the memory association of the vaccination is common. Smallpox vaccine containes no smallpox, thus even if you could catch a disease from a vaccine, you would get vaccina, not smallpox.
Rumor #10: A strong immune system is your best protection. Build up your immunity by eating right and cutting out the bad habits and you risk little chance of catching smallpox.
***** While a strong immune system is always critical, if you could avoid disease by being strong, eating right, etc., the entire French olympic men's gymnastic team wouldn't be HIV positive. Viral disease is especially hard to defeat because the virus infection lives inside your own cells and is not accesable by much of your immune defense mechanism, or the infection cannot be delt with unless the host cell is also destroyed. Keep in mind that we have NO cure for ANY viral disease. Treatments to lessen the severity but no cure.
__________________
Reasonable Rascal
12-20-02, 02:21
Rumor #11: Smallpox vaccine is deadly -- scientists call it the most dangerous vaccine known to man.
Rumor #12: The smallpox vaccine contains bovine sera as well as other animal substances. This can be a risk for mad cow or nvCJD (Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease).
Rumor #13: Animal DNA is found in these vaccines, and injecting these into our bodies may in turn cause the animal DNA to alter our own human DNA.
I encourage our members to add their own questions to the pot; we all benefit as a result. There is no such thing as a dumb question save for the ones not asked and thus never answered.
RR
Go here now:
http://nejm.org/earlyrelease/early.asp
and read these articles! You heard it hear first!
Now that the Rand material has been released to the public we can get a bit more specific. If you look at these and re-read the comments I made above you will now have a good understanding of my comments.
Get the drift?
Rumor #11: Smallpox vaccine is deadly -- scientists call it the most dangerous vaccine known to man.
***** Hasn’t killed me yet. Compared to say the cholera or MMR vaccines which kill 1out of 2,000,000 I suppose that 3/1,000,000 is more deadly = 510 out of 170,000,000 anticipated worst case scenario vaccinations. Which scientists by the way? The same ones that are telling us that HIV came from natives having sex with green monkeys in secret rainforest rituals?
Rumor #12: The smallpox vaccine contains bovine sera as well as other animal substances. This can be a risk for mad cow or nvCJD (Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease).
***** Calf = bovine, duh. Calf lymph gland sera was used in the 40’s to grow the New York Board of Health strain which was then grown only in cell culture media. Show us evidence that Kuru or CJD was present in this strain in the 40’s, then I’ll worry.
Rumor #13: Animal DNA is found in these vaccines, and injecting these into our bodies may in turn cause the animal DNA to alter our own human DNA.
***** This is an animal derived vaccine, it is an animal product, of course it has animal DNA. So do most of the other vaccines, such as MMR, which is chick embryo derived (bruck, bruck, cock-a-doodle-do!). That explains why so many people in our current society are bird brains! But seriously, the animal DNA in the vaccines doesn’t have the promoter capability to allow it to recombine with host DNA and blend genetic material.
Read the NEJM material, if you are in the general public don’t get the vaccination unless an outbreak occurs, stay home, watch the panic mongers on CNN for laughs, keep a good emergency food and water supply for the inevitable bad weather emergencies, read the above comments on this thread. Get it?
NurseRatchet
12-23-02, 22:38
RESQDOC, found a fun one for you. Below is a link posted on Frugal's to a site by Sherri Tenpenny, DO who appears to have a rather odd slant on the truth. Looking forward to your take on this article. ;)
Link to Dr. Tenpenny's article (http://drcarley.com/Smallpox%20What%20To%20Do.htm)
NR
I consider myself both a scientist and a clinician, although perhaps rather poor at both. Never the less, I am interested in FACTS. As one of the great disciples (Heinlein) said, "Get The Facts!"
Opinions are like belly buttons, everybody's got one, and most of them are full of lint. This article has some valuable info in it, but it is presented in a skewed fashion to support a predetermined conclusion. This is not science. Science may start with a hypothesis, but the facts take you where they will, even if it is not the conclusion you would have preferred or were looking for.
It would take a great deal of time to dissect out each and every mis-statement or outright error here. Let me hit the high points:
***** This author represents the fringe of the medical community. It is clear that she has her own agenda to promote. Take a look at her website and you will see her views on a variety of things. She is welcome to them.
"TAKE HOME POINTS:
Smallpox is NOT highly contagious. You have time. Don’t panic.
Smallpox is only spread by close contact of less than 6 feet for at least 6-7 days. You aren’t that close to coworkers or commuters.
Treatment for smallpox should be surveillance and containment, without vaccination.
Smallpox is not highly fatal. There are treatments for smallpox.
The vaccine will not protect you from getting the infection. The vaccine has high complication rates, is an experimental drug and there are many contraindications."
***** SP is not especially contagious but you do NOT need to be in contact with it for days to catch it. Accidental implantation is one of the biggest concerns about vaccinating anyone - they scratch their pustules and then either transfer it to their own nose/eyes/mouth/genitals or they smear it on a door knob or grab handle and somebody else gets it. That is the concern about Tangos in public, not their presence but their fluids. One micro-droplet inhaled or ingested, there you go.
***** "Containment" oh, like road blocks and cordons, forced isolation? Kind of at odds with her concluding thoughts about personal freedom isn't it? Many people would be happy to stay home for three weeks, but others have lives to get on with and probably would rather get the vaccination and press on. There is no single solution nor any single right answer for every person. A broad spectrum of solutions is needed to address the disparate needs of the nation.
***** Treatment for SP is supportive care out of the hospital. Treatment for a SP outbreak will be selective voluntary vaccination and voluntary limitation on public movement for a few days. Force people to GET the vaccination? Hell, we are trying to figure out how to get people to stay the hell AWAY from the vaccination areas that don't need to get it! Other end of the conspiracy curve: surveys have shown that there is a larger % of the population that thinks they will be prevented /discriminated against and kept from the vaccine than those who think they will be forced to get the vaccine!
***** SP not highly fatal? Not if you are adult and healthy. Kids and elders drop like flies. Look at the FACTS and you will see that either end of the bell curve takes it in the shorts, as usual.
***** There are NO cures for SP or any other virus infection. There are therapies that MAY lessen the severity or shorten the course or slow the progression of the disease. Most of these anti-virals are very toxic in their own right with nasty side effects. Mega dose Vit. C may have an anti-viral effect, the science isn't there yet. Interestingly I have had excellent, excellent results in some of my patients using once weekly mega dose Vit. C IV infusions for fibromyalgia. But that's a whole 'nother conversation.
***** The vaccine is an experimental drug? In one form or another it had been used for 200+ years. The current vaccine has been used for 50 years. Won't keep you from "getting" the disease? No vaccine keeps you from having the infectious agent from circulating in your system. What they do is give your immune system a specific tool to attack the infectious agent before its full effects can manifest. Sometimes your immune system nails the disease without you being aware of it's presence, other times you may get a mild form of the disease rather than the full blown one, chickenpox being an example.
***** You want to know why they quit giving the vaccine? Because the global pool of hosts had become too small to sustain the disease after the global vaccination campaign, and the disease died out in nature. There have been no wild cases of SP since 1977. Why is that? People had been using containment, isolation, execution, and destruction of entire villages for thousands of years to control pox with no success, when the global population was miniscule and the ability to travel non-existent. Then 200 years of vaccination (with a population increasing exponentially and global transport a reality) - and it's eradicated. Must be a coincidence. No wait, the virus genome became really depressed and committed suicide. Or maybe that’s what the UFOs have been up to - curing SP by putting those chips in our brain.
***** The author suggests avoiding white sugar, stocking up on organic vegetables, filtered water, and a few kilos of Vit. C, staying home and "hunker in the bunker." Probably good advice, but I don't think it's going to help if we have an aerosol dispersal over a major city. We'll vaccinate some emergency service volunteer guinea pigs, get a large enough pool to draw some conclusions, and see. Without risk? Nope. But read the fine print in your birth contract (clause 13): "THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES IN THIS LIFE. YOU PAYS YOUR MONEY AND YOU TAKES YOUR CHANCES."
Reasonable Rascal
12-28-02, 04:17
Currently making the rounds on the 'Net.
A book called Vaccines: Are They really Safe and effective? By Neil Z. Miller.
Page 45 states: Every examination of the facts indicates that the smallpox vaccine was not only ineffecitve but dangerous. Undoctored hospital records show consistantly that upwards of 90% of all smallpox cases occured after the individual was vaccinated. (Mokelume Hill, CA: Health Research 1974. p. 142)
Page 46 Deaths from Small pox tumbled only after people refused the shots ( Ibid p. 13)
RR
rumor #14 - colodial silver will protect you or make you well if you catch smallpox. ( *DUCKS!* ) ;)
-t
"A book called Vaccines: Are They really Safe and effective? By Neil Z. Miller.
Page 45 states: Every examination of the facts indicates that the smallpox vaccine was not only ineffecitve but dangerous. Undoctored hospital records show consistantly that upwards of 90% of all smallpox cases occured after the individual was vaccinated. (Mokelume Hill, CA: Health Research 1974. p. 142)
***** OK, a book from 1974 might have some good info in it. "Undoctored hospital records" which records, which hospitals, from when/where? Not quoted. Undoctored implies a conspiracy to cover up or alter records. When and by who? "90% of all smallpox cases occured after..." based on what, the same unquoted unproven records used to illustrate a conspiracy theory? Was it proven to be SP after the vaccination or was it vaccinia? How severe? If it was SP then it had nothing to do with the vaccine, which containes NO SP and can't give you SP. If it was vaccinia, that in mild forms does occur after vaccination in some. FACTS! We need FACTS! What are the sources sited for the above statements? Are the undoctored records still available? Did anyone besides the author see them?
***** "Deaths from Small pox tumbled only after people refused the shots ( Ibid p. 13)" From what source is this conclusion drawn? Are we talking in the US, in developed countries, in the third world? What time frame - 50's, 60's, 70's in relation to the geographic area? Which people? Why did they refuse the shots? See above.
***** "rumor #14 - colodial silver will protect you or make you well if you catch smallpox" Could be. It is also said to cure HIV, Cancer (all types), Clap, Runs, Cellulitis, Dermatitis, Hanta virus, Arthritis, COPD, SLE, JRE, etc. It may. Silver has powerful bacteriocidal properties. The science just isn't there, and there are those pesky questions about silver absorption in the GI tract, or lack there of. Oh, I forgot to mention that in large amounts silver, including colloidal silver, is toxic. Thus oh so careful with your dosing.
RUMOR 15
According to ABC 20/20 or NIGHTLINE interview with former Soviet BC warfare defector, the SMALLPOX that would be employed by the former Soviet Union (now possibly in the terrorist hands) is genetically enhanced and not affected by current SMALLPOX vaccines.
Sov Biowar agents - very possibly true. It is well documented that they developed strains on several biowar agents that they were unable to develop vaccines/antidotes for, and these agents were certainly able to overcome/bypass the existing vaccines/antidotes. Perhaps the current SP vaccine would lessen the severity and reduce the fatality rate vs. no vaccination? Who knows? I hope we never find out.
Reasonable Rascal
01-10-03, 01:54
17. It causes other diseases according to the medical community and is very likely contaminated as well. One reason so many in the medical community are against it.
18. Doctors have no idea what the smallpox vaccine might do to people at the extremes of life--less than 2 and older than 65.
19. Repercussions include serious brain and heart diseases, autism, abnormal chromosomal changes, diabetes, various cancers and leukemias, plus demyelination of nerve tissue years after vaccination.
20. Vaccines made from animal substrate contain animal viruses that are impossible to filter out. By 1961, scientists discovered that animal viruses in vaccines, including smallpox, could act as a carcinogen when given to mice in combination with
cancer-causing chemicals, even in amounts too small to induce tumors alone. They concluded that vaccine viruses function as a catalyst for tumor production. ~Science, December 15, 1961.
RR
17. It causes other diseases according to the medical community and is very likely contaminated as well. One reason so many in the medical community are against it.
***** “it” I assume this means the vaccine, causes WHAT other diseases? The vaccine can cause vaccinia is this what they mean? It does not cause SP, it isn’t SP. “Very likely” contaminated with what? Related poxvirus strains? That would be good – better protection. Hoof & mouth? Clap? What? Those of us in the medical community who do not favor mass vaccination at this time do so because the risk/benefit equation is against it for most plausible scenarios.
18. Doctors have no idea what the smallpox vaccine might do to people at the extremes of life--less than 2 and older than 65.
***** We know very well what it does thanks to 50+ years of mass vaccination of all ages. See every WHO, UN, HHS, or other publication on the topic ever written. Once again, pre-vaccination is not recommended for those under 1 year old or anyone with a known compromised immune system, serious illness, chemo, etc. It’s not the age, it’s the individuals medical condition. Arbitrary numbers mean nothing. Thus all of the $%#@**^%$!@$%^^&*! effort I am putting in on designing the most thorough efficient screening process possible to pull people out of the vaccination process if they should not receive it.
19. Repercussions include serious brain and heart diseases, autism, abnormal chromosomal changes, diabetes, various cancers and leukemias, plus demyelination of nerve tissue years after vaccination.
***** Possible horrible complications include vaccinia necrosum, a most disgusting skin breakdown, and vaccinia encephalitis similar to West Nile in presentation. Both have a high fatality rate. These occur about 50/1,000,000 with fatalities about 3/100,000,000. More common is a widespread rash and fever that does not include skin breakdown, about 1000/1,000,000 with few if any fatalities. There is no evidence for autism, cancer, demylination, etc., nor have I found anything to suggest these are even possibilities. There is some interesting speculation on the general role that viral infections might play in some chronic seemingly unrelated illnesses such as chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, MS, etc. but this in NO WAY can be extrapolated to the SP vaccine. This is unknown territory and will be for years. See below.
20. Vaccines made from animal substrate contain animal viruses that are impossible to filter out. By 1961, scientists discovered that animal viruses in vaccines, including smallpox, could act as a carcinogen when given to mice in combination with cancer-causing chemicals, even in amounts too small to induce tumors alone. They concluded that vaccine virus’s function as a catalyst for tumor production. ~Science, December 15, 1961.
***** Viruses are now easy to filter out, you can buy a virus filter for $50 at the camping store in the proper water filter. The technology in 1961 was a wee bit different. Since 1961 it was shown that the virus did not act as a carcinogen but might have a role as a promoter given other exposure +/- genetic predisposition. Good virus induced oncogene promotion research has only been possible the last few years with cheap gene sequencing technology becoming available. Could a virus + a carcinogen lead to oncogene stimulation? It is certainly possible. What if you have a genetic predisposition + several carcinogen exposures + a trigger, virus or other? We don’t know yet. Now, what do you all think is the greatest risk as an oncogene promoter, recurrent smoking/chewing tobacco or mary-jane, recurrent industrial chemical exposure (e.g. Benzene or Carbon Tet.), recurrent radioactive particle exposure (e.g. living down wind from a coal fired power plant or in a house with radon), recurrent exposure to nitrites in smoked/processed foods, recurrent herbicide/pesticide exposure, recurrent UV exposure from living at high altitudes or being outside a lot, or a cultured attenuated vaccinia virus exposure x 1? This is a rhetorical question. We swim in an ocean of known carcinogenic material on a daily basis. We eat, drink, inhale it, rub it on our skin, revel in it. Since most cancers probably require some combination of genetic predisposition, recurrent carcinogenic material exposure (perhaps more than one at once), time, and the uncontrollable effects of random mutation, I suggest people find something else to worry about especially as anyone who worries about this isn’t going to get the vaccination no matter what anybody says.
Folks, there are A LOT of issues and good/bad information out there on small pox and the vaccine. If you want the propper poop on the subject, go to this CDC site and read ALL of it. RESQDOC has hit everything on the head. Essentially, this is what most of the DMAT's are using for the basis of instruction.
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/index.asp
You have to look at everything as Pre-Attack and Post-Attack. There are huge differences in the recommendations.
My personal concerns are simple:
1. I have a history of skin problems, Grade 3 Acne as a young buck. Really nasty and embarassing stuff. Even at dang near 49 years old, I still get zits. Although not ecxema(exema), it may be considered a skin disorder.
2. I can either get the vaccine through the hospital where I work (whenever the decision is made on what the hell they are going to do), or with the DMAT I am attached to. Either way I am considered first line/first responder, which makes the decision tougher.
3. There are so many liability, insurance and workers comp issues that nobody really knows who will be responsible for covering my butt if I get really sick, lose a limb, or go prone permanently.
I am still leaning towards taking my chances and foregoing the 15 bifurcated needle pricks. Like I heard on one of my favorite movies, "it's a good day to die". I'm too dang mean and ornery to let them little bugs kill me. I am a lot more worried about a tank car of chlorine turning over on the highway at this point.
WolfBrother
12-02-03, 10:37
Hey "Ebber Boty" - I appreciate the detailed information.
Including the "how can this small number make this big number do anything" logic.
If we get a localized outbreak - I see the Feds trying to isolate/quarantine the "small part of the big number". Mainly because of what I suspect will be Press fueled hysteria and the normal public "DO SOMETHING/ANYTHING" response.
What do you think? localized outbreak or wide spread due to the amount of travel that happens in our society?
WolfBrother
Reasonable Rascal
09-20-06, 14:48
Smallpox vaccine protection may last a few decades
Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:39am ET
By Will Boggs, MD
NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Most patients are fully protected against smallpox for a few decades after primary smallpox vaccination and protection against severe disease for up to 50 years, according to a new report.
"Median duration of protection against the disease would be more or less 20-30 years," Dr. Martin Eichner from University of Tuebingen, Germany told Reuters Health.
"In other words, the present population may not be protected against infection unless recently vaccinated. However, some fraction of previously vaccinated individuals may still be protected against the severe forms of the disease."
Smallpox killed millions of people each year into the 1960s and left many more blind and scarred. Smallpox was officially eradicated in 1979 after a worldwide vaccination campaign.
Eichner and colleagues used data from the smallpox outbreaks before and after 1900 in the UK to estimate the duration of protection provided by vaccination against smallpox.
Based on these data, the median protection during major smallpox outbreaks ranged from 11.7 to 28.4 years after primary vaccination. As late as 50 years after primary vaccination, as many as 78.8 percent of vaccinated individuals were still protected against the severe manifestations of smallpox, and severe cases were extremely rare within 20 years of vaccination.
"We should pessimistically assume that previously vaccinated individuals are no longer protected against the infection, but many of those who have been vaccinated may still possess partial protection against the severe forms of the disease," Eichner said.
"Although this certainly is good news for an afflicted individual, we still do not know whether such partial protection will work out positively or negatively on the population level in the event of a bioterrorist attack."
"Transferring these historical data to a modern situation, we have to be very careful," Eichner cautioned. "The vaccine which was used has constantly changed, and all of us have certainly received a vaccine which must have differed from those a hundred years or so ago. One may also hope that the modern vaccines were even more potent than the old ones," he added.
SOURCE: Epidemiology September 2006
Powered by vBulletin™ Version 4.1.3 Copyright © 2012 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.