KI question

[tunneldiver]

I purchased lab grade KI at the below link. I will make the saturated liquid if the need arises per the OISM web site. Can someone confirm for me that this is the right stuff? I wanted the ganular as oppsed to premade capsules for cost per quantity sake. Will storing it in individual prescription pill bottles be OK, or is there a better container, I would like to be able to give some to family and keep it in various vehicles. Thanks!
https://www3.carolina.com/onlinecatalog/direct_template3.asp?class=333&item=38323&title=Potassium+Iodide

[tangent]

right stuff.

how did you manage to order from Carolina? They tend to be on the expensive end and won't sell chemicals to individuals. Did you just claim to be a business and not have to provide proof?

I guess prescription pill bottles would work, but they let moisture in. Film containers or plastic chemical bottles without a metal lid would be better.

[tunneldiver]

Yes, I am a small business owner, but I don't recall them asking for proof. Is that a bad price for 120g. I looked at a lot of lab supply places, and that was the best price, and it is cheaper than the premade pills.

Another question, if you don't mind. In my research for KI, I found that it is in animal feed. So I found a supplier, told him I am a homeschooler and needed some for an experiment. They nicely sent me a "sample". It does not have a nice lab label, and I want to make sure that is what it is before I stake my life on it.

I ordered from carolina when I wasn't sure if the feed place would pan out. But I called alot of lab/chemical supply companies, and they were receptive to my homeschooling line, they just didn't have any. I just wanted to see if I could find it cheaper than the premades, so I would have enough for family or friends that needed it.

I can get lots of 35mm plastic film containers, if that is better-Thanks.

[Reasonable Rascal]

Copied from: http://www.ki4u.com/FAQ-part-2.htm#8t
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Q: How Do You Make a Potassium Iodide (KI) Solution?

A: Prepared Potassium Iodide (KI) solutions are only available by prescription, such as Lugol's Solution. However, anyone can buy Potassium Iodide USP at a chemical supply house (and even some larger photo supply outlets) and readily mix up their own Potassium Iodide (KI) solutions that is every bit as effective as the tablets. Also, we were recently reminded by a science teacher, that every town in America likely has a ready
and waiting supply of KI sitting in their high school science labs that could protect hundreds of their students and local residents! A single 500 gram bottle of KI, now already on many of their shelves, could provide 3,846 adult daily doses or 7,692 child (age 3-12) thyroid-blocking doses! Community leaders need to pull together their
resourceful science teachers, local pharmacists and doctors to fully explore the resources already at hand and available for any future nuclear emergency that might befall their locale. You might could be responsible for saving many in your community from future thyroid cancer by simply bringing this to the attention of your local officials, science teachers, pharmacists and doctors!

There are two kinds of Potassium Iodide (KI) solutions that can be made. Saturated and anything less than saturated.

With a saturated Potassium Iodide (KI) solution you are adding a little more Potassium Iodide (KI) to a fixed amount of water until some of the crystals or granules will not dissolve. They will be visible at the bottom of the solution, even after vigorous mixing. The solution is now considered saturated when it won't take up and dissolve any more Potassium Iodide (KI).

From Cresson H. Kearny, the author of Nuclear War Survival Skills by Oak Ridge National Laboratory, states on page 114:

"To prepare a saturated solution of potassium iodide, fill a bottle about 60% full of crystalline or granular potassium iodide. (A 2-fluid-ounce bottle, made of dark glass and having a solid, non-metallic, screwcap top, is a good size for a family. About 2 ounces of crystalline or granular potassium iodide is needed to fill a 2-fluid-ounce bottle about 60% full.) Next, pour safe, room-temperature water into the bottle until it is about 90% full. Then close the bottle tightly and shake it vigorously for at least 2 minutes. Some of the solid potassium iodide should remain permanently undissolved at the bottom of the bottle; this is proof that the solution is saturated.

Experiments with a variety of ordinary household medicine droppers determined that 1 drop of a saturated solution of potassium iodide contains from 28 to 36 mg of potassium iodide."

Two ounces of granulated Potassium Iodide (KI), mentioned above, is about 56.7 grams.
Also, from the above, an adult would be wanting four drops of the saturated solution as an expedient dosage. This would amount to between 112 to 144 mg of Potassium Iodide (KI) total. Remember, 130 mg of KI is an
adult daily dose and half that (65 mg) is a child (age 3-12) daily dose.

Less than saturated Potassium Iodide (KI) solutions, when properly mixed, should give even more accurate dosages because there is more solution overall to be measured out per dose. For example, mixing and dissolving exactly 26 grams of Potassium Iodide USP into a one liter bottle of water, for example, produces 1000 ml of Potassium Iodide solution with a strength of 130 mg for each 5 ml of that Potassium Iodide (KI) solution. There are 200 of those 5 ml servings in that 1000 ml (1 liter). 5 ml can be easily and accurately measured out with a common graduated medicine dropper. 5 ml is also equal to one measuring teaspoon.

Following the above formula, you could make up most any size and/or strength Potassium Iodide (KI) solution needed with accurate scales and enough bulk Potassium Iodide (KI).

Regardless of what kind of Potassium Iodide (KI) solution might be utilized, Potassium Iodide (KI) is very bitter. You must always then mix that dose (whether 4 drops saturated or 5 ml from the above formula) into another
glass of juice, milk, or, at least, water to dilute it further before drinking.

As with the Potassium Iodide (KI) tablets... NEVER TAKE ANY MEDICINE OR DRUG WITHOUT FIRST
CONSULTING YOUR PERSONAL PHYSICIAN! YOU COULD HAVE ALLERGIES, OTHER MEDICAL CONDITIONS, OR REACTIONS TO OTHER MEDICATIONS YOU ARE TAKING, THAT COULD BE VERY DANGEROUS OR LIFE THREATENING! ASK YOUR DOCTOR NOW, BEFORE A NUCLEAR EMERGENCY, AND THEN YOU'LL KNOW IF/WHEN IT'S NEEDED! (That's just part of being truly prepared, getting that
rectumurance now while you still can!)

[tangent]

on the chemical supply house end, I have a very rough guide on setting up a home chemical lab oriented to hobbyists(sp?), home schoolers and students that are disgusted w/ what CPSC has done to neuter the chem sets you can buy commercially. If you really home school, I can send you a copy of what I've finished so far. I'm including the suppliers section here:
Note that not all places sell chemicals, most are noted if they do (TES) does and it's not noted.

SUPPLIERS:
==========
(AS&S) American Science and Surplus http://www.sciplus.com
best prices I've found on most items, however what they have is spotty, with gaps in
both coverage and size ranges. I have gotten great deals on some items, that were
exactly what I was looking for. This isn't allways the case. In particular, I have
had really bad luck buying any type of tubing from them.

** UPDATED **
(BL) Bryant Laboratories, Inc. 1-800-367-3141, call for a price list,
will sell lab supplies and chemicals to individuals. Still waiting for the price list.
FOUND WEB PAGE! http://www.sirius.com/~bry_lab/PROD02.HTM they sell most chemicals
to individuals, call for possable smaller quantities and items not listed. fairly good
selection stocked,but by default they don't seem to sell less than 500g or 1 liter,
chem prices are reasonable considering quantities - worth it if you can split them w/
others. prices on labware/glassware vary from really good to bad - asperators were
$5.90 - 1/2 of the best price I found and 1/4 of the other one I found. OTOH, a 50 mL
buret was $69.00 - most expensive one I've found - once again, comparison shop!

(BS) Blue Spruce Biological Supply http://bluebio.com/ has some glassware/labware,
at OK prices.

(CA) Corolina Scientific http://www.carolina.com They don't sell chemicals to
individuals, but have labware/glassware - count on the expensive end of the
spectrum, but if you are unable to locate something elsewhere... Of special
note is their online "world of chemistry" and "teacher world" there they have
some great online tutorial type material!

(CC) CandleChem - http://www.alcasoft.com/candlechem/equipment.html - good prices on
containers and bottles suitable for chemicals.

** UPDATED **
(CLS) Chem Lab Supplies http://www.chemlab.com/ 1-714-630-XXXX, rings but i have yet to
get an answer. *UPDATE* Well, no wonder! The number I had was wrong. They have 2
numbers: 714-630-7902 and 310-973-2391. They have a HUGE selection of chemicals and sell
to individuals, the only catch is that they will not ship the really hazardus stuff, you
have to come in and buy it over the counter (like metalic sodium). Prices on chemicals
are pretty good, prices on glassware tend to be on the high end. Labware falls in the
middle. The are distributers for Fisher Scientific and VWR Scientific and have other
sources. They will track down special items and chemicals and generally give a discount
off of catalog prices (like Fisher and VWR, not their own). They will also break case
lots of glassware and sell individual items. The smallest quantity in their catalog
tends to be 4 oz, but they may sell smaller quantities. *WEB SITE FOUND!* see top of
listing.

(CS) The Chemistry Store http://www.chemistrystore.com/ very nice prices, selection
is some what limited and minimum quantities that must be ordered tend to be large.
Worth looking at, especially if you can split the order w/ others. Many of their
chemicals are oriented toward candle making and fragrances.

(FCS) Forest City Surplus - http://www.fcsurplus.com/science/labtools.htm
very limited selection, very good prices.

*UPDATE*
(HL) Hagenow Laboratories, Hagenow Laboratories Inc., 1302 Washington
Manitowoc, Wisconsin 54220 phones disconnected, but they are said to be mail order
only now. Has very good reputation for having the best prices and selling to
individuals. Catalog is supposed to cost $2.00. (thanks -tomv- for this listing)
name just changed to Elemental Scientific, P.O. Box 557, Appleton, WI 54912-0571 This place does sell chemicals in small quantities and the prices for both chemicals and lab stuff were not bad. Now that there is a new owner the prices may go up.

(PT) Pyrotek http://www.pyrotek.org/ sells chems and glassware. better sellection
of both than name would imply. glassware is overpriced. min order for chems is
generally 1 pound. Good selection of common acids at reasonable prices. Their
focus seems to be pyrotechnics, but there is a lot of organic glassware on the site
and I knowticed a number of chemicals that are controlled - so be carefull what
you order from these people. You might be doing business w/ uncle sam...

** UPDATED **
(NS) NASCO http://www.nascofa.com/prod/Home good sellection, many
unique items. Prices on glassware are not great, but has some good deals on some
lab items. Also a number of lab items not available elsewhere. They list chemicals
but will only sell them to schools. Homeschool links/reviews say they will (thanks
Daphne for this listing) 1/8/01 - "only sell to schools" knowtice seems to have
gone away.

(HTT) Home Training Tools - http://www.hometrainingtools.com/
My new favorite source! Much better prices than (SF) on most items - aspirators
for $12 ((SF) wants $20), burets for $13 ((SF) wants $35)... they sell chemicals
in 1 oz and 30 mL quantities (sometimes less) and DO NOT have HAZMAT charges for
anything! The selection is fairly good, but limited. selection of labware and
glassware is decent, but somewhat limited - no where near what (TES) or (NS) has.
Actually they want $1 for HAZMAT if you buy 2+ chems with a certain prefix...(thanks
to Daphne again!)

(PPC) Perfect Parts Company - these are the people that used to have displays in
hobby stores. If you call them, (410-327-3522) they will send you a catalog and can
tell you if there is a retailer in your area. Their Mail order is all being done by
Stevens International (856-435-7645) now. Stevins is kind of a pain to deal with,
slow to respond and not that helpfull. In many cases you have to buy a bunch of an
item at the same time, like 12-36 of the same size stoppers at once, or 6 test tube
holders or 12 test tube brushes... Glassware is generally sold induvidually, but is
quite expensive. Stevins also acts as a distributor, and can tell you stores in your
area that they distribute to, that Perfect will not know about.

(RL) ROWLABS http://www.rowlabs-scientific.com/shop.html They sell chemicals to
individuals in 250 mL quantities and up. Covers many of the basics, but glassware
is on the expensive side.

(SF) Science Fair http://www.sciencefair.com - these people are great!, good prices
and responsive fast service. If they don't have it, they will try and find it for
you and act as an intermediary between you and the big chem supply companies that don't
sell to individules. I imagine that parts listed as comming from (PPC) could be gotten
from them for much less. (10/27/00 update - prices on most special order items tend to
be expensive! - distilling flask was $5 more than PPC) They will not sell chemicals to
individuals unless you come in, in person, or if you can get a business to receive the
chemicals that are drop shipped from the suppliers. They also do not know chemistry,
so can be hard to communicate w/ at times, when you are looking for specific items.

(TES) Tri-Ess Sciences, Inc. http://www.tri-esssciences.com/
huge selection of items I havn't been able to find elsewhere, oddly, a few common
things arn't listed. In many cases their prices are better than The Science Fair,
however they should be avoided for any glassware product as these are *VERY* expensive!
look at their pricelist, not their catalog.

on your question about how to tell if the KI is good. I'm sure I could answer your question if I researched it. I was teaching myself analytic chem durring spring semester and have a small analytical lab here in the bedroom, along w/ tons of books, however I both lack the time and the answer would be mute, as it would surely involve you buying other chemicals to perform the tests with, and it would be cheaper all arround for you to just get some lab grade stuff. If all you had was the feed grade stuff, or people came knocking on your door after a release, I wouldn't hesitate to mix up and dispence the vet stuff - it's probably good, and a chance is better than certain death. want more of an rectumurance for your family - get the lab grade material. 120g will dose a LOT of people - use that first!

hope that helps,

tangent

[tangent]

btw: if you found other places that will sell chems to individuals, please let me know.

[tunneldiver]

Thanks so much tangent. I do homeschool, but she is only 4 years old, so we are not quite ready yet, but thanks for that list. I did find one guy that is not on your list, When/if I find my notes, I'll post his company name. He distributes to the labs around here, and was willing to sell to individual, his price wasn't as good as carolina though.

I wanted to keep my lab bottle of KI in its sealed bottle for increased shelf life. I would like to take the feed KI, put in individual pill or film canisters with instruction on how to make the saturated liquid and an eyedropper and give them to family and vehicle kits. This would save the lab KI for my house. So you think it would be OK to take the 120g lab stuff and open it and save the feed stuff for last?

I have also read that you need to be prepared to take it for up to 100 days, and other sites that say don't take it for more than 10 days. Any ideas on this?

Thanks for your input. I found one easy experiment with KI, but it requires 30% hydrogen peroxide, which I don't have either.

[tunneldiver]

Here are the companies and item #s that I found in my search for KI

Fisher - P412
Neogen - 08863
EM Science - PX1512
Carolina.com - WW-88-3790
VWR - EM-PX1512-1 Try 1-800-932-5000 or http://www.vwrsp.com/

My notes are not very organized so please double check. I think these companies would all sell to me. Like I said, the feed manufacturer was helpful, so if you have any in your area, that might be a good place to check. A water treatment place nearby was helpful, but they just didn't have any. I also called the labs in my yellow pages and asked them for there suppliers. There is a real hole in the ability for homeschoolers to get chemicals.

[tangent]

I'd say use the lab grade first - best not to take chances w/ family and friends.

no idea on length of time to take the dosages, but I would trust the info in nuclear war survival skills over anything else - they guy that wrote it is a scientist and does good work.

thanks for the list of chem/lab places.

on the 30% hydrogen peroxide, you can pick it up at beauty supply houses for hair dressers - this is hair bleach. However, you might not want to, considering the current climate as it's also a precurser for a couple of kinds of explosives and may be watched. If you do get some, don't leave your name and address and pay with cash. Best to have a beutitian pick some up for you, if you get it - that won't be questioned.

[tunneldiver]

What does anyone know about Lugol's solution. The little I know, is that it is given to patients before some nuclear radiological testing to protect their thyroid. It is not available w/o scrip. But I have seen it for sale at saltwater aquarium suppliers, under the brand name Kent's Lugol Solution. I think it is SSKI with some iodine thrown in, but thought someone with more knowledge could check it out.

For my purposes, I think I will go ahead and order one bottle of the ki4u pills, to keep a few pills in the vehicles. I started to put the granular KI in baggies and pill bottles for the cars, and thought, no cop would ever believe this is not illegal drugs.

[tangent]

on that other stuff you mentioned - sorry, havn't a clue... never heard of it.

as to pitting KI in baggies/containers for in the car - first, it doesn't look like any drug out there, the cop should know better. If he tries to take a "taste", he'll DEFFINANTLY know better! second, reduce and print out instruction sheets for the container, that and assosiated material like a kearny fallout meter kit and some reduced and printed out info on fallout precautions/shelter building and associated supplies should do all that's nesesary to convince him that it is what you claim. context and common sence should go a long way in establishing credibility. Some examples: remember the "hit man" case? - the guy got nailed for having a lawnmower muffler. He didn't have a lawn or a lawnmower. He did have a book saying it was usefull for supressing a .22 rifle and the rifle to go with it. HCL is on the "watched list", it's a common acid, used to clean cement, in labs and in extracting gold - unfortunatly, it's also used in the manufacture of meth anphetamine, I believe. have a gold sluicer(sp?) and associated items? run a janatorial service, etc - you're off the hook!, have the, rather specilized, glassware and associated chems to run a meth lab? - your in for a world of hurt! - context s EVERYTHING! if it's in place and you can point to a legitament use, no cop is gonna nail you and no court is gonna convict you. Print out the info on using KI and wrap it arround the container! no problems!

[Reasonable Rascal]

Lugol's Solution is named for Jean Georg Antoine Lugol, a Parisian phsyician who lived until the mid-1850's (wonder if he died from cerebullus interruptus?).

The solution is sometimes referred to as Lugol's Caustic Solution. It consists of 1 part each of iodine and potassium iodide in 2 parts water.

What it was used for I have no idea. I had to refer to a 1959 reference to even find it. But I can see why it would saturate the thyroid, though as the name implies it may have caustic properties.

But its just this type of question that my signature line refers to. :smile:

RR

[tunneldiver]

From what I have gathered, Lugol's solution is given to patients before nuclear radiology testing, don't laugh, I know nothing about this stuff. I asked a nurse friend, and it did ring a bell with her, but that wasn't her area of expertise either. I found several links that describe the teasting to patients, and they all refer to Lugol's being taken before and after the test.
http://umm.drkoop.com/conditions/ency/article/003830.htm

I will try to get the MSDS sheet on this Kent's Lugol's to figure out what the concentration is. On the ki4U site, he even refers to Lugol's, look at RR's post copied from ki4u, the first sentence of the answer refers to it. Keep you posted if I find this is another cheap OTC way to get the KI

[tangent]

Stool exams direct and stained with Lugol's iodine solution, for parasites (ova, cysts, protozoa...).

hmmm... it's a lab reagent - interesting!

Lugol's iodine - An iodine solution used in grams method adn for staining protazoa in the stool.

3.32 Making Lugol's Iodine - 100ml

Weigh out 1g of iodine. Tip it into a 100ml measuring cylinder. Weigh out 2g of potassium iodide. Tip this also into the measuring cylinder. Mix them well. Add a little water and mix again. Fill the measuring cylinder to the 100ml mark w/ water. Shake to disolve. Keep the solution in a polystop bottle.
Lugol's iodine is used for Gram's stain (see section 11.5). Iodine spoils metal, so don't let it touch metal, and DON'T GET IT ON THE BALANCE!

bottom line - iodine is not good for you, I think we can write this one off as a source for KI, HOWEVER!, it looks like we just found a field source for a lab reagent!