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DrBaboon
10-26-05, 19:56
I don't know that you'd consider the home healthcare or nursing home world to be "austere," but in a sense it is compared to the hospital or the ER.

It also gives a preview of what x-ray might be under austere circumstances if you were lucky enough to have any x-ray equipment in the first place.



The nursing home regulations in the US generally result in any x-ray services done in the facilities be rendered by a visiting service - rather than using equipment based in the facility.

The appearance of the equipment is often different enough that if I have a resident with me at a nursing home, and the x-ray goes down the hall, I'll ask the resident what it is. They *rarely* correctly guess that it's an x-ray machine.

Typically, what I've seen is the tech pushing some kind of stand down the hallway (often looks like an IV pole on steroids), while lugging/dragging a big suitcase.

http://www.pnwx.com/Equipment/MedXray/MinXray/HF100H/

It turns out that this is one of the models I have often seen brought in.

Even though the pictures on that page show a wheeled cart that unfolds to be the framework supporting the x-ray, I have not seen that cart in use.

Instead, I've generally seen either this

http://www.pnwx.com/Equipment/MedXray/MinXray/Accessories/XGS%20MKIII%20LW_3.jpg

stand or this other one in use

http://www.pnwx.com/Equipment/MedXray/MinXray/Accessories/XGS%20MKIII%20LW_4.jpg

How well has it worked in terms of clinical results?

Well, I guess it depends on what you're trying to do with it.

Keep in mind that while many of us see portable Chest X-rays done AP, and are aware of the differences in how things look compared to an installed CXR unit doing PA films, most of us *don't* have films done with portable technique on other areas of the body. Well - OK - we get portable KUBs in a hospital setting once in a while. But we don't get knee films or hand films or whatever with portable equipment.

IOW - if you haven't lived with portable films on various areas of the body - you'll be in for a treat. There is of course *magnification* like you often see comparing a AP portable CXR to a PA film done on an installed unit. Basically, you don't have any of the colimating devices or other things available to you to make the rays parellel and non-divergent. There are no Bucky diaphragms in this type of work. So it's like casting a shadow on the wall, and magnification is typical. And as in AP portable chest x-rays, you get less magnification of the body parts that are right on top of the film cassette, and more magnification of body parts further from the casette.

You also don't have all the usual means of positioning the patient or aligning the x-ray source and the casette that you have with an installed x-ray unit. So distortion, having films shot at off-angles, etc. is the norm. The x-ray source is also often much closer to the patient and the casette than even with hospital portable CXRs, which adds another dimension to reading this kind of portable film.

In spite of all of that, I've gotten useable x-ray information in nursing homes with films shot by visiting services.

It's also given me some principles for deciding whether or not to order an x-ray in the nursing home, skip the x-ray, send the person out for another imaging study of some kind, or perhaps send them to the ER even for conventional x-rays.

Aside from being not very helpful period - you can't get decent skull films this way. Mandible films can be done, but it's going to be mostly bilateral views (I order more mandible films in the NH for sialolithiasis than trauma -seems to affect my population). Forget sinus films - you can't properly align things. Chest x-rays are more challenging than regular portable AP films in the hospital, but are usually good enough to be useful. KUB's are OK. Of course, things like confirming feeding tube tip locations, or even squirting some gastrograffin into a tube when there is ambiguity can be done if the doc is there when the tech is there. I have been able to get GI contrast from some of the pharmacies with 24 hour advance notice.

Limb films, pelvis films are OK - with distortion/alignment/magnification problems. I don't do hip films on people I think have hip fractures - they go to the ER. I sometimes order hip films or pelvis films on people I *don't think* have hip fractures to add evidence to the existing clinical impression of *no fracture*. The delay before the portable service comes, takes the film, and later reports it, and then having to go to the hospital if there is a hip fracture results in more delay than is usually acceptable before surgically addressing the hip fracture.

Spine films don't work out too well on this kind of portable equipment. I have been known to look at lumbar vertebrae for signs of compression on a KUB in someone with back pain. As far as I can tell, I rely less on the phone reports from the service, and ask to see far more actual films than my local colleagues. There is often stuff which interests me that is not commented on in the report, and I often want to correlate what I see clinically with the film.

If you could either come up with digital imaging to substitute for the casette, or manage a way to have your film developer set-up and operating, I bet this type of x-ray would have it's uses in some parts of austere care. Of course, there is also the problem of needing consumable x-ray film and chemicals for the developer.

It's also an area where I could see a return to old "special procedures" techniques - if they were done at all (if supplies were avaiable, could be conjured up, etc.).

For example - hand injecting contrast for venograms (another good reason for having a pocket doppler available, I think - I'd rather do the doppler). If you're injecting an arteriorgram for limb viability, I'd bet the limb is already lost, and you'd probably get good enough information from pocket doppler to supplement your clinical assessment.

Unless you've got an abdominal ultrasound (possible) - I could see going back to oral cholecystograms (I haven't ordered an OCG since intership!). Nuclear medicine is off-line in the absense of radio-pharmaceuticals, even if you had the equipment.

IVP's aren't that hard to do if you have any x-ray, as long as you have some IV contrast. I don't think tomograms are essential. Ultrasound would again be a good alternative - and re-useable.

Basically - I'd bet that *if* we have any kind of x-ray available - it would be something like this. And we'd have to adjust our use of them, as well as how we interpret them. These kinds of portable films really do look different.

FlightERDoc
10-26-05, 20:42
The military is using portable digital x-rays in the field (in Iraq) with pretty good results.

The advantage in digital is obviously, no films/developers/wet processes involved. Not cheap (yet), but very handy - the processor is a laptop, and the display is a 17" LCD.

DrBaboon
10-26-05, 23:11
I have a number of colleagues who have been in the sandbox - staff nurses, physicians, CRNA's. Most have been in CSH's. I'll ask them if they had experience with digital radiology when I catch up with them.

Off hand - do you know if the radiology set-up is completely digital equipment, or if it's mostly a digital cassette?

Of the many hospitals in my (large metropolitan) area, I only know of one which has gone to digital radiographs. Neither hospital where I am on staff (one uiversity hospital, one community teaching hospital) has gone digital. Sure - they've digitized some films, or transmitted them over phone lines, but the x-rays were originally on film.

My limited understanding of digital x-rays is that the equipment is mostly being made as a full radiology suite - table and all - that is dedicated digital from the outset.

I have seen just a little discussion of digital cassettes. That seems preferable - it could be used with any x-ray equipment that is already in use. I had thought that in the US, separate digital cassettes were being used for industrial x-rays and in veterinary work, but were not yet FDA approved for human use. I have no clue what the status of digital cassettes are in other countries.

Does it matter if there are veterinary digital cassettes used for people in austere circumstances? Morally, I can't say that it would be a problem. However, not knowing more about it, my concern would be whether veterinary cassettes might be too small for human x-rays (speculating here - you might know the status - which is why I'm asking). The other factor is that I don't think it makes sense to put stuff in mothballs for some disaster that we might not ever use otherwise. For one, some items need to be rotated. Skills and equipment needs to be maintained.

As much as I've posted on laboratory, most/all of it is stuff I either used regularly in the past, or might choose to use regularly again. If I set aside some additional supplies - that's OK. I would know my equipment worked, and that my skills were there.

I don't have x-ray in the office. If I did - I would make appropriate use of it now - in addition to any disaster planning. If we're talking about veterinary cassettes, it's a problem to use them in daily practice now.

If there are FDA approved digital cassettes now - which are "stand alones" that are not part of a dedicated x-ray suite, that's something I'd like to learn about.

That's where I could see a small portable x-ray and a digital cassette - it's a complete portable set-up then - if you have a working computer.

DrBaboon
10-26-05, 23:19
Thought I'd add - since the x-ray technique is what's going to determine how the picture looks, I'd expect that a digital cassette used with portable x-rays would also have images like the kinds of things I have experienced with nursing home portable x-rays.

My residents have been caught off-guard by the portable images - they differ so much from what they expect to see based on hospital films. I guess overall, that's what I'm doing a not-very-good job of saying as a theme. IOW - wondering if we need to get more conversant with portable x-ray images prior to a disaster or austere circumstances.

In a western nation, the only circumstance that comes to my mind where general radiology is *all portable* is the nursing home and homecare environment.

FlightERDoc
10-27-05, 15:20
I don't really know, but one of my former students was called up and served on a FAST (an advanced sugrical team in 4 hummvees, with all their equipment). He didn't mention any particular difficulties with them. Since they had to lift them in and out of hummers, I assumed they were very light weight, not on wheeled stands (unless they have stands with off-road tires).

52bravo
10-27-05, 15:48
i have some pic from a FST unit in a-stan who use it, there is some pic of xrays, if you will like see them? it can give you a idea of how the picture looks

FlightERDoc
10-27-05, 16:10
Sure, lets see them!

52bravo
10-28-05, 08:53
http://img436.imageshack.us/img436/6457/agramfilm5lr.jpg

http://img436.imageshack.us/img436/3200/agram37ea.jpg

http://img436.imageshack.us/img436/1747/landmine27sb.jpg

http://img436.imageshack.us/img436/5642/skullfilm4dv.jpg

http://img436.imageshack.us/img436/2392/frostbitexray4hj.jpg

ok here are some the first one is a-grafi(danish name dont what yoh call it) a xray of the blood vessel in the leg to if thay are ok after a mine. the leg hat to come off.
then 2 of unit used. and then a skullfilm on a one who had a mine go off in hise face.
the last one is of some frostbite.

Reasonable Rascal
10-28-05, 09:35
Outstanding pics! Thank you, 52bravo.

RR

FlightERDoc
10-28-05, 11:35
Angiogram?

Anyway, good pics - not the best I've ever seen but certainly workable for most emergent practices - and I think operator experience and skill would factor into the quality of the images.

52bravo
10-28-05, 11:39
arr yes Angiogram, tx sir

and the pic is from the lightbord not the digtal copy, but yes operator experience and skill is a factor.

DrBaboon
10-28-05, 22:11
Thank You, 52Bravo!

That x-ray unit is the same kind I've seen in nursing homes, and looks like the one that I linked to. So it's a digital cassette in place of a regular one.

Great pics!

I noticed some marks on the films - C: _____ W: _____ with different numbers for C and W.

Since I haven't dealt with digital x-rays, that got me wondering what I'm looking at.

Do you know about those 2 notations? My guess is that they are like Level and Window on a CT scan - and represent how the gray scale is apportioned over the range of possible radiographic densities - as Hounsfeld units.

In CT scanning, the Level is the mid-point of the gray scale, and the window is the absolute value of the spread of densities assigned from all white to all black.

That made me think that "C" might be "center" and "W" could be window or width.

If so, you could "photoshop" the pic, and improve what you can see with it. IOW - the same picture's data (radiographic densities) could have different visual shades of gray for the same pixels by changing C & W. That is, if I'm connecting the dots correctly.

Straighten me out on this if I'm going in the wrong direction - I haven't had digital x-rays to look at prior to this.

tangent
10-28-05, 23:05
> If so, you could "photoshop" the pic, and improve what you can see with it. IOW - the same picture's data (radiographic densities) could have different visual shades of gray for the same pixels by changing C & W. That is, if I'm connecting the dots correctly.

there is an image enhancement technique out there, that I know of through it's forensic applications. If you have 2+ images of something, you can sharpen the image to add detail. It's used with blurry licence plates caught on surveillence camera's a lot...

http://www.reindeergraphics.com/

look at "focus extender" and "optipix"s detail sharpener and refocus.

-t

DrBaboon
10-29-05, 00:03
there is an image enhancement technique out there, that I know of through it's forensic applications. If you have 2+ images of something, you can sharpen the image to add detail. It's used with blurry licence plates caught on surveillence camera's a lot...

It's not what I had in mind - sorry for the misunderstanding. I was sort of joking with the "photoshop" notion - sort of comparing it to changing the visual image gray scale while keeping the same digitized radiographic densities. I think you might see more of what I mean when I mention "spinning" the knob below. Same data, but looks different - and likening that to "photoshop."

Although - I suppose you theortically could have a time delay, super-imposed exposures with digital films that you could not do with conventional films. I have no idea if that's done here. I mean - DSA's (Digital Subtraction Angiograms) have been on the back burner for 20 years for a lot of reasons.

As it applies to 52Bravo's pics - the leg angiogram shows no blood flow lower than about even with the eyes of the bottom hemostat. Based on what he said - you know that's where the arterial flow ends, and was the reason for the amputation. What you don't know if you only look at one picture is whether you simply shot the film before the contrast got further down - the next film in a "movie" would show you it isn't going lower. I am not in any way doubting the interpretation, merely trying to explain the concept, knowing there are plenty of folks who are not familiar with angiograms. The folks taking the pic either waited long enough to shoot the film, or have more pics to show the contrast isn't going lower.

That's what I was speculating about suggesting superimposing 2 or more digital images. I don't know if it's capable of that.

Aside from any/all of the considerations of looking at portable x-ray images compared to installed x-ray equipment, digital has it's own quirks - even for something as common as CT scan.

CT's generally have some type of "scout" view taken, showing the body in that plane, and often giving a set of lines where the slices are located. In doing so, the scanner is stopped from moving, and the person slides (through the hole in the wall) under the scanner. The image looks a bit like a regular x-ray - but it's different in several regards. For one - it's not all exposed at one time the way it is with a conventional x-ray - it's really more like those panoramic cameras that you mount on a tripod and have them sweep across the horizon. The film advances incementally, and is exposed sequentially.

The other difference is that you're no longer seeing radigraphic shading as a conventional x-ray. Not on the slices from the CT scan, or on the "scout." You're seeing the steps of a stair case of shades that go from all white to all black. How those shades are assigned is flexible, and while there are known "recommended" settings, it is somewhat arbitrary, and a different part of the "art" of x-rays.

For example - when we get head CTs - there are times we ask for "bone windows" in addition to the regular brain images. There is no 2nd scan done - simply the same digital matrix of densities that make up each pixel, is reconfigured to a different "Level" and a different "Window." You don't ordinarily see brain tissue on a skull film - it's there, but is not distinguishable from anything else in the skull. What makes it visible on the CT scan is making very small differences of radiographic density have a noticeably different shade of gray. "Bone Windows" emphasize bone structure, and vitually blur out brain tissue differences - it all looks homogenous. Again - same picture as far as radiographic densities that got recorded - totally different visual manifestation of those same densities.

Same deal with chest CT's. If you want to see things in lung parenchyma - like a peripheral nodule - you're dealing with an area of the lung with a lot of air. To see small radiographic differences there, you give up seeing detail in the water density structures - like the mediatinum. To see mediastinal detail, you end up seeing mostly all-black (air density) for lung parenchyma.

Most chest CT's that I have seen print the pictures twice - one time using Level and Window optimized to mediatinum, and one time using Level and Window optimized to lung parenchyma. Same radiographic info - 2 different displays of it.

And neither one is exactly like a chest x-ray as far as the shades you see, and what they correspond to.

I've had the pleasure of sitting at an off-line CT console, and "spinning" the contol changing Level and/or Window, and watching the liver metastasis come and go - as far as whether it was visually distinguishable from the rest of the liver as they were represented by the gray scales. Techs and radiologists generally will "spin" the controls of the CT for that reason - in addition to looking at the static films.

What I'm getting at here with digital plain films - is that they could look "darker" or "lighter" or have some arbitrariness of the gray scale that makes them different than conventional film

I'm not really going at altering pixels, or something like that, as much as wondering about some the quirks of portable films in nursing homes. Many are over exposed or under exposed a tad. Not enough to interfere with getting useful info, but since you're not going to have the tech drive back to the nursing home and shoot the film again, you live with it. In a hospital outpatient setting, the patient won't be sent away until the film is developed and looked at for technical quality, and re-shot if needed.

On the digital end - what I'm thinking about is either quickly seeing that your image is not technically acceptable, and shooting it again, or "spinning" the dial, and having a more helpful imagae from the same data.

I suppose you could squeeze some "forensic" type info from it. But since you don't have depth in the film, you can't pick out a pixel and see it's digital value as a Hounsfeld unit like you can with CT.

Hope that's a little clearer about what I'm wondering. It ought to be interesting to get the feel for digital plain films and what's different about them.

I wonder if this is a more succinct way of putting it: Conventional films are WYSIWYG. Digital images are not.

52bravo
10-29-05, 06:03
on the leg angiogram(after OP repair), yes it look ok, but there was no blod coming to the lower leg under the knee. the hole thing will end up in a amputation, but thay dit not have that musth too do that day so thay tryed to save it, but it dit not help.
i cant help you C and W, it is the US army wjo have the unit, we in the danish army dont have thing we can use out of the hospital, so we only have the same units you see in the Xray room at a civ hospital.

DrBaboon
11-03-05, 20:08
Well, I'm gradually getting some more info...

USAF news story about the digital cassette's use in the field. It gave me the name of the product:
http://www.dcmilitary.com/airforce/andrews/2_11/national_news/15009-1.html

http://rad.usuhs.mil/project44R3/download/acr_service.pdf service manual for the product.

I haven't read all 80+ pages. Somewhere in some link someplace I got the idea that the whole unit weighs about 75 pounds.

http://www.diagnosticimaging.com/scar2000/stories/pacsman02.jhtml

http://www.auntminnie.com/index.asp?Sec=abt&Sub=prs&Pag=dis&ItemId=51690

The Lumisys cassette has apparently been bought by Kodak a few years ago.

From Uniformed Services University re: deployed equipment...

http://rad.usuhs.mil/project44R3/equipment.htm

The Fuji unit also appears to be in use.

http://www.fujimed.com/products-services/imaging-systems/digital-xray/cassette-based-systems.asp?location=1&area=10&id=5&subid=0

http://www.fujimed.com/products-services/imaging-systems/digital-xray/smartcr.asp?location=1&area=10&id=5&subid=0

I'm learning. :wink:

DrBaboon
11-03-05, 20:56
I'm still looking around a little at a time...

I have seen some polaroid cassettes for sale (via web searches).

And I see that Polaroid has x-ray film for sale (but it sounded to me as if it's conventional x-ray film made by Polaroid, not neccessarily developed as a Polaroid film). I may have read that information incorrectly, so I won't feel badly if someone corrects me with better information than I've found so far.

Then there are the things you find on the web that look like they *might* be in the running for a Darwin Award...

NOTE: I would officially label these links as "KIDS! Don't try this at home - we're untrained amateurs!"

http://www.noah.org/science/x-ray/polaroid/

http://www.noah.org/science/x-ray/

Scary.... Veeerrrrry Scary.

tangent
11-04-05, 05:48
Remember seeing quite a few articles in the journal "Military Medicine" on portable X-Ray equip... you might look it up next time you're in a medical library...

-t