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View Full Version : Lab Planning for WolfBrother's family - example



DrBaboon
11-10-05, 19:25
In another thread (pH - will anyone be the first penguin in the water?), WolfBrother and I were discussing lab planning:


DrBaboon,
You're correct about lab studies not being an isolated item but part of a continium.

*snip*

The year or two is not completely far fetched. The New Madid fault line in Southern Illinois and the Yellowstone super-volcano are two areas that could cause 1 to 2 year disruptions on a wide scale.

*snip*

This shows organization and the requirement to NOT have to do everything - like you mentioned.

You wrote:
My own first line of planning would be to evaluate the needs of my family or any other people I set out to care for. That's where I'd look to match some testing capability with treatments. And then build from there.

My wife is a Type2 diabetic, diet controlled. She also had the radiation treatment for Graves. So she has to take thyroid medications. Over the years, I've gotten pretty good at telling when she needs to go back to her Dr and get a TSH done. And pretty good at telling whether the meds will be increased/decreased. In a long term situation, we will be facing some problems due to non-availability of thyroid meds.

I have periodically thought about his situation, and it seems like as good a time as any to resume the discussion.

Using the approach of analyzing the family needs...

Mrs. WolfBrother is a Type II diabetic who is diet controlled, and has been given radiation therapy for Grave's disease. He seems to recognize when to have her get her TSH checked, etc.

On the whole, I am erring on the side of using more medical terminology in many of my posts. My reasons for that choice include: 1) economy of explanation and ease of use for me - my posts are long enough as it is; 2) I see the discussions on this board as helping any of us improve our capabilities, and to that end, a lay person who reads medical texts looking for information is in need of learning terminology. IOW - I hope to encourage pursuit of knowing terminology. That's part of how I see teaching - immersion in the subject.

The Austere Medicine book suggests basal temperatures for following thyroid replacement medication. That's a reasonable approach. It's also possible to do many of the bedside medical exams for signs of hypothyroidism or hyperthyroidism. Honestly, those signs are not that helpful because they are mostly going to be seen when people are further outside their goals than you want them to be. If it's all you have, well, OK - it's what you have. Relaxation phase of deep tendon reflexes, lid lag, tremor, skin, hair, etc. Note - I'm not mentioning thyroid auscultation for bruit or assessing/grading proptosis -- those would be more appropriate for un-treated Grave's or possibly for endogenous hyperthyroidism, rather than the possibility of excess thryoid replacement (exogenous hyperthyroidism).

There are home laboratory test, or CLIA waivered tests (in the US anyhow). There are tests considered to be more sophisticated than what are approved as home tests or CLIA waivered tests.

If this were a perfect world... Yeah - right. You'd be able to get TSH testing done as you have been doing, and perhaps glycohemoglobin (hemoglobin A-1-C and variations on the theme). There are "home tests" on the market for glycohemoglobin, but they really aren't tests AFAIK. They are actually kits to collect blood at home and send it in to a lab, so that won't help us in austere circumstances.

You're left with the choice of not pursuing either of these tests, or finding a way to have them available if you think it's important enough to your wife's health to do so. In all likelyhood, that means the assistance of your physician in ordering supplies for you, and learning how to perform the tests, even if they are easy to do.

For now - I'll simply point out a TSH testing product (I haven't used it, so I can't give you a recommendation on it). It is a CLIA waivered test, so an office laboratory doesn't need to have an actual laboratory license to use it - "merely" a CLIA Waiver (yeah - I know - a license by any other name...).

http://www.wampolelabs.com/poc/gh_thyro_features.asp

http://www.wampolelabs.com/poc/gh_thyro_use.asp

As you can see, it's pretty easy for use - more or less like a pregnancy test cassette. It does not give conventional results for TSH - as in an actual number - rather it gives you something like "high or medium." It won't give you a "low" on TSH, so excess thyroid replacement is not going to be spotted this way. At least it doesn't require a big machine to use the cassette. I wouldn't be surprised if it needs refrigeration. Given your parameters, do you envision enough electricity often enough to run a small refrigerator, or do you have an alternate means of refrigeration?

http://www.thyrotest.com/FAQ.html

Your wife is probably not getting TSH measurements more than a few times per year. They come in boxes of 20 tests, and it's around $300 for the box. I don't know the shelf-life.

Would it be work to collaborate with your physician and another couple or 2 who have an interest in TSH testing to split 20 tests between you? 4-6-8 tests would get an average person through a 2 year period - which is what you have stipulated. Would you potentially do your TSH testing at home and call the physician with your results, and use that as a means to maintain your skills and also use up the supplies so that stock ends up being rotated?

I can't answer those questions. I'm merely posing questions to illustrate the process you might go through in deciding what to do.

I'll try to post more later - and perhaps discuss glycohemoglobin. If nothing else, I'll aim to post more on whole blood glucose (which you probably already are capable of performing), and perhaps urine testing.

I'd also like to get around to posting more considerations on using animal thyroid.

DrBaboon
11-10-05, 20:35
You're left with the choice of not pursuing either of these tests, or finding a way to have them available if you think it's important enough to your wife's health to do so.

You might already understand what I meant, but I could have done a better job with my words.

Of course it's important to your wife's health. That's not really what I meant.

I meant something like "if it's that much more helpful to have TSH testing available instead of relying on clinical signs to adjust her dose of thyroid replacement." Or if the financial resources, good will of your physician, etc. - are better spent on TSH testing vs. other tests, or for that matter - even other medical supplies, or perhaps other preparedness supplies of some other variety altogether.

No decision like this happens in a vaccuum.

More another time.

WolfBrother
11-11-05, 06:57
You might already understand what I meant, but I could have done a better job with my words.
I understood. No problem.


Given your parameters, do you envision enough electricity often enough to run a small refrigerator, or do you have an alternate means of refrigeration?

I suspect the 1 to 2 year wide scale disruptions will cause a general system wide loss of electricity. Scattered pockets will have electricity. Some areas will never lose electrictiy. With my luck, on a 2 year disruption, electricity would not be available until year 3.

Until the local powers that be get organized, only prepared individuals will have a source of electricity. Even after that, I suspect electicity will be reserved for things like commo/medical etc.

The only sure source of "refrigeration" will be underground storage, i.e. a cellar. So storage temps will run mid-50s to mid 60s F.

At this point in my life, I do not have large scale independent electrical generation capability. In about 5 years, I will. Even then, being able to do pre-electric or non-electric stuff will be high on my list. I do have solar AAA, AA, C, D, & 9V battery charging capability.

I was a Medic 70/74.
We had little tablets to drop urine on for ketone tests. The more purple, the more ketone.
We had a "fizzy" tablet we would drop into a 50/50 urine/water test tube. Color change indicated whether sugar was present and if so what the sugar level was.

During my training - remote site qualification - I had to be able to do a Gram's stain and identify the major WB and RB cell structures. Also a spin Hcrit/Hglobin as an example of standard lab tests I had to be able to do.
(forgive the abbreviations - I've been at work since 2AM and am watient patently for the SA to unscrew what she screwed up so I can recover what I was doing an continue on with the production upgrade).
The emphasise was on doing the most with the minimum.

We had reagents for a number of tests, not strips or the very nice automated machinery we have now.

About 3 years ago, a storage shed I had made like Dorothy's house and went to Oz. Along with all of my idiot cards, good manuals/notes, etc.

DrBaboon
11-11-05, 10:08
The only sure source of "refrigeration" will be underground storage, i.e. a cellar. So storage temps will run mid-50s to mid 60s F.

What was on my mind when I asked about alternate ways of achieving refigeration, included other ways of running a compressor.

I haven't looked recently, but we had some friends who used to have refrigerators connected to their gas line - either propane tank or natural gas pipe. It was simply a small motor to turn the compressor - but not an electric motor. Again, if you have electricity some of the time, and the refrigerator door stays closed, you should have some ability to refrigerate things. There are lots of ways to come up with small amounts of fuel for an engine to turn a compressor - alcohol, methane from compost, maybe even swapping for a small diesel and squeezing oil out of crops.

For that matter, why can't water power turn a compressor - without even getting into generating electricity?


I was a Medic 70/74. We had little tablets to drop urine on for ketone tests. The more purple, the more ketone. We had a "fizzy" tablet we would drop into a 50/50 urine/water test tube. Color change indicated whether sugar was present and if so what the sugar level was.

I briefly used some of the tablets in my younger days. I am not sure if some might be currently available. There are test strips with only 1-2 test on them, which have taken their place in many cases. There's no real advantage to the tablets - for the most part, they are the same reagents that have been incorporated onto the test strips. If it became a matter of making your own reagents, I could picture it being easier to measure powder or make solutions, and not bothering to try to make strips. You might not even get to the point of making them into tablets.

Some of the oldest urine glucose tests were straight chemical reactions, while the newer ones incorporate different reactions catalyzed by enzymes.

There's nothing wrong with having more capability than the needs you and your wife have. However, since she is a Type II diabetic, you're not likely to find ability to find urine ketones that important.

Whether or not someone is a Type I (insulin dependant) diabetic, ketone production occurs when metabolism shifts to fats. It occurs during Type I diabetes when you aren't getting glucose into cells for fuel due to insufficient insulin. It's easier for the body to get fat into cells for metabolism them. You can also have excessive ketone production add to the toxic effects of insulin shortage.

The same process goes on with low carbohydrate diets. It's a desireable feature in that case, because you want to consume/eliminate fat, and a modest amount of ketone production helps suppress appetite. That's why you probably have seen people dieting checking their urinary ketones - IOW - they need to know if they have gotten to the right point, or are maintaining themselves in that metabolic condition for continued weight loss.

Any illness where people lose appetite, or are not able to get sustainance will also shift metabolism to make ketones. A person with a bowel obstruction, on IV fluids but not eating and not getting parenteral nutrition will make ketones.

We also see ketones in death and dying. Part of the process of dying from many illnesses (ranging from cancer to many others) is that people stop eating - often simply from loss of appetite, sometimes because of a blocked GI tract or whatever. The ketosis from metabolizing fat that ensues is something of a natural anesthetic.

Under ordinary conditions, ketones won't come into play for a Type II diabetic. If they are losing weight, it will come into play. While you might need to adjust medications, you don't neccessarily need to monitor urine ketones.

I guess I'm suggesting that for your current family needs, it might not be the highest priority to have a tablet or similar reagents for urinary ketones. But I'd never turn down having ketones available on a strip.

tangent
11-11-05, 12:46
> The only sure source of "refrigeration" will be underground storage, i.e. a cellar. So storage temps will run mid-50s to mid 60s F.

there are a couple of peiltzer(sp?) based portable fridges out there that run on 12V w/ a car cig outlet plugin. It comes w/ a big wallwart to mate w/ it, if you want to run it off house current.

Some will hold 18 standard beverage cans (beer/pop), others will just hold a 6 pack. There is no freezer. One I have gets down to 48deg and stays there, but it can take 12 hours to go from room temp to 48 deg. Temp is not ajustable. Shop arround - prices vary for the same unit.

They run in the $50 - $100 range - shop arround. You could probably make something better if you bought the peltzier(s) and built an insulated box arround them. Add a temp guage and a rheastat to control temp.

That alt energy co in Boulder colo had kits and referbs for high efficency and alt energy fridges, washers, etc...

nice thing about peltzier's is they generate heat to - so if you need to culture something...

-t

FlightERDoc
11-11-05, 15:28
There are also propane fueled (no compressor) coolers that use a small flame to heat freon (or whatever) to expand/condense via convection - these are used in (for example) RV's, and the reason that people have to level their RV's (the flame has a relatively small aperture to burn in).

There are also completely solar powered electric ice chests and freezers, and HomePower magazine had an article earlier this year (I think) on a completely solar no moving parts closed loop convective cooling system. http://www.homepower.com/files/solarice.pdf

Finally, if you live in a cold climate, you can make ice blocks in the winter time (take a plastic trash bag and line a cardboard box. Fill with water, let freeze. Remove ice and bag from box, place ice in 'icehouse' (very highly insulated structure). Repeat box / bag / water / freeze cycle as needed).

I have a very old (now, like 15 years old) 12 v icebox like you mention. It does take quite a long time to cool down (it helps if you pre-chill it with blue ice or something) but mine at least will get down around freezing.

Interesting idea about using one as an incubator. They don't really get that hot, and controling the temp would be easy. Plus, it's a handy size, and could work off of a small solar array (one or two roll-up panels?) and a small gelcell battery (for at night). Hmmmmm

tangent
11-11-05, 16:29
The medtech CD has a document in /medlab/equipment called "how to look after a fridge" about these type of units. Repair and maintenence type material.

-t

ps: as I recall - neithor you nor Dr. Baboon have requested a copy of the CD's... want one?

http://medtech.syrene.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1494

(second post has partial TOC...)

DrBaboon
11-14-05, 01:06
In the course of looking at some other supplies, I found a glycohemoglobin home test that actually gives the result to you in real time. I had previously mentioned that AFAIK the home glycohemoglobin kits were actually for collecting a sample and sending it out.

http://www.diabeticexpress.com/content/ProductDetail.aspx?CategoryID=25&SubCategoryID=77&ItemID=01-37

http://www.diabeticexpress.com/content/ProductDetail.aspx?CategoryID=25&SubCategoryID=77&ItemID=01-35

Obviously, since I just found out about it, I don't yet have any experience with it.

Turnover of RBC's is slow (changes in test results depend on having old RBCs replaced by new RBCs that are produced under new glycemic conditions), so hemoglobin A-1-C/glycohemoglobin tests would only be done 2-3-4 times per year.

Your specification is to take care of your family for a 2 year situation.

DrBaboon
11-14-05, 01:10
http://www.metrika.com/3medical/accuracy.html

Additional information.