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DrBaboon
11-26-05, 00:46
I'm still jumping around in Austere Medicine, so I have both an incomplete view of the book, and might have some other ideas in the future.

Thought I'd toss out a couple topics to consider when revising - they are somewhat related.

Bed Sores is a topic in the book. I'd like to suggest working on it a bit more.

Risk assessment for Pressure Ulcers as published isn't bad, but can be updated. Geriatric Medicine has used Braden Scales for risk assessment for almost 20 years, and it's a useful tool. In many ways, it recapitulates what's in the book already, but this is a handy way to get it done and get people thinking about risk. It's also user-friendly, and can be part of a simple chart. Of my 2 hospitals, both took forever to adopt the use of Braden Scales.

Here's the catch - while the Braden Scale was a landmark tool in the mid-1980's, it's been surpassed. It's just that people are even less familiar with the "better" tools than the Braden Scale.

The Braden Scale assumes that its risk factors are equal to each other in terms of impact, and that they are additive. It's also possible to have people with higher Braden scores who are really not going to get pressure ulcers - so that you spend a lot of poorly triaged time working with people who don't need time spent on them that way. For example - the ambulatory patient with crummy skin and poor nutrition. The key thing is that they are ambulatory - so that will outweigh their other identified risks.

The newer epidemiology on Pressure Ulcer development is that the root is someone who does not reposition themself, and then the other risks stack onto that immobility. The risks do not add up as they stack on top of immobility, they multiply - so additional risks are worse than what the Braden Scale predicts.

http://www.bradenscale.com/bradenscale.htm

All in all - my suggestion is to incorporate mention of the Braden Scale - it's simply so widespread as to be "the coin of the realm" inspite of having been surpassed in some ways. We can easily add text to the book to make the spirit of that information available.

I'll also make a pitch for understanding the mechanism of injury in pressure ulcers. It's ischemia. There is sufficient application of pressure to occlude blood flow. The time frame to develop a pressure ulcer is as short a time as it takes for tissue to die from being deprived of blood flow. The depth and territory of the pressure ulcer is going to depend on the territory of the ischemia. Pressure tends to distribute in tissue as a "truncated cone." Sort of like bullets in a .40S&W round. The smaller area - the actual truncated part of the cone - is at the skin surface. The wider part of the cone is deep in the tissue. That's where undermining and other wound geometry comes into play in pressure ulcer development.

Our collegues in anesthesia are probably even more sensitive to this topic than those of us in geriatrics. Immobile patients under anesthesia for prolonged surgeries have high risks for peripheral nerve injuries, as well as pressure ulcer development.

Here's an extreme example, and one that's certainly not an everyday need.

Imagine a patient with a temporal-parietal aneurysm who is going to a craniotomy in a lateral position. It turns into a 12 hour surgery, possibly including a hypotensive anesthesia technique.

They show up in the recovery room with a swollen, necrotic ear on the contralateral side.

Ischemia.

The other suggestion is that I think the section on wound debridement could be broadened.

There is sharp instrument/surgical debriding, which is what is discussed in the book.

There is also auto-lytic debriding - which occurs naturally, and can be hastened by some of the debriding agents we apply. There are indications for either approach.

The maggot discussion is pretty helpful, and has elements of both surgical and auto-lytic debriding. I've had a little experience with maggots - it's often been a major upset to the staff, whether it's been used intentionally or unintentionally. The 2 key things in my experience are getting "sterile" maggots, and having a reasonable dressing constructed to keep the maggots captive. There's good information on the subject in the book already, but some mention of some other materials for dressings are merited.

Some/many of those types of supplies are applicable in other aspects of chronic wound care, including pressure ulcers.

I'd propose a simple rationale for changing dressings, and selecting dressing material.

Something like: The junkier the wound, the more often you change the dressing, and the more you want the dressing to stick to the wound. The cleaner the wound (and the more the wound is trying to heal), you want to change the dressing as infrequently as possible, and you want dressing materials which don't stick to the wound.

Inevitably, dressing materials stick to any wound, to some extent. Changing a dressing is a debriding method - whether you intend for it to be debriding or not.

The "brick wall" that you hit, is that sooner or later you start removing healthy tissue that is part of the wound's attempt to heal, and you delay or prevent wound healing.

Gauze is a mainstay of dressings which we all use. It is, however, an instrument of debriding wounds. There is no such thing as not having it stick to a wound, and the wound base gets caught in the weave of the gauze. It sticks less when we apply saline, but it still debrides. If the wound is junky and needs debriding, that's desireable - for now. It's probably not nearly so desireable a few days or a week into the care of that wound.

The use of gauze also means changing the dressing more often. Even if we apply saline, it will evaporate in however many hours, leaving a dried wound base, and in all likeklyhood, killing more tissue in the wound. If we change the dressing before it dries out, we are changing the wound too often, but if we change it once or twice a day, we're letting the wound dry out (and we're still possibly changing it too often if it no longer needs debriding). So these requirements are in conflict with each other, and they each cause further damage to the wound.

This probably means having at least some more modern dressing materials available (or figuring out a way to improvise or approximate what they offer), which optimize the extent of wound hydration, have a semi-permeable barrier over the wound, and are sticky enough to remain in place but are not so sticky to remove much granulation tissue from the wound bed if it no longer needs debriding. The alginate dressing materials, hydrocolloids, and other materials fit that bill.

FWIW - hydrocolloids are also good top dressings to keep maggots in captivity.

Reasonable Rascal
11-27-05, 14:20
Some very good points there, Doc. Speaking only from my POV another edition would be long in the making but there is no reason not to be planning even now. There is a great deal we didn't cover owing to time, circumstance, etc, more than enough for an expanded edition, or even a Vol. II.

The last writing established the areas of interest. What is needed now, IMO, is an expantion that addresses the mechanics of care, the actual how to rather than the what to.

RR

Craig
11-27-05, 14:44
I absolutely agree RR, Its a time issue.

I would love to do a "how to" book - just no time currently - perhaps in 4-6 months.

Im keen to put each chapter of the current book up in a wiki and just over the next couple of years add to it. Provided it is a closed site and we dont get huge volumes of traffic Im very happy to pay for hosting - Im essentially illiterate when it comes to web construction - but I understand there are free wiki programmes - help anyone - Tangent?

There is plenty of knowledge here we should use it.

As I posted on Frugal's - I would love to really develop the "long-term" chapter - Im fascinated by the idea of maintaining high level medical care in a long term austere environment. I could easily quadruple the size of the chapter with time.

cheers

Craig

P.S Tangent, I havent forgotten the obstetric book - I hope to have it as a *pdf soon

tangent
11-27-05, 16:52
> Im keen to put each chapter of the current book up in a wiki and just over the next couple of years add to it. Provided it is a closed site and we dont get huge volumes of traffic Im very happy to pay for hosting - Im essentially illiterate when it comes to web construction - but I understand there are free wiki programmes - help anyone - Tangent?

Yes, there are free programs, but you need a site to run them on. There are also "free" Wiki sites - the catch is that they dump advertizing at you and they are not private. Otherwise, you have to pay.

Kind of waiting on RR here - Flipper seems OK with doing some upgrades here, and if they work out, maybe we could host a Wiki on this site.

Control is an issue - being able to add things next to the Wiki is highly desirable, but control costs more, unless we do it here.

I need to look into this more - at the end of a semester right now and a bit busy.


> P.S Tangent, I havent forgotten the obstetric book - I hope to have it as a *pdf soon

Thanks Craig! - really do appriciate that.

I'm thinking that I did get you a copy of "Expedient Antibiotic Production" when I got together with you, but I"m not possitive. Did I?

thanks,

-t

DrBaboon
11-27-05, 22:26
However this eventually plays out, I guess I'm in a season of life where I'm enjoying digging through the topics I've been posting.

I don't know that lots of editing or discussion is needed to make it worthwhile for me to post, but I hope to toss out additional posts and topics. If it becomes possible to have a revised edition one of these days, and some of what I've posted is included - that's great, but I'm enjoying the process of what I've posted enough to its own reason to do it. Heck - sooner or later, I'll end up posting something that people will find disagreeable - that's the nature of discussing these things, so I don't pretend to have this stuff figured out.

I have no idea what my schedule will permit in 6 months, a year or 2 years or whatever. Life in medicine will no doubt continue to change for each of us.

FWIW - I've been digging up more material on ESR using capillary tubes (not looking favorable for using it - but still worthwhile to possibly correct what I had been taught on my peds rotation). I still have a few more references to obtain and read, but I'll probably post about Whole Blood Clotting Time and whether it can be used to monitor warfarin, as well as capillary tube methods. My first impression is that it was a controversial subject in the late 1950's and early 1960's, and has been made moot by the development of prothrombin times. My 2nd impression is that clotting times don't correlate with prothrombin times, but there are published sources that show hemorrhagic complications can still be avoided using Whole Blood Cotting Times, and some of them have theories as to why that's possible in spite of the lack of PT correlation.

The 3rd preview/impression is that using simple, readily available materials can yield useful clotting times *if* methods are followed religiously. IOW - complicated rules, but simple supplies.

Partly as a result of the needs of the day (1950's), there are more data available with clotting times used to dose adjust parenteral heparin.

In keeping with Craig's mention of long-term management, I think it'd be much harder to get adequate heparin supplies from animals than it would be to cultivate the correct clover species and isolate a warfarin. It does not seem realistic to me to work out satisfactory prothromin time reagents.

That's why I feel the push to see if I can supply some ideas based on a Whole Blood Clotting Time bibliography that I'm working on.

Like I said above - this is something of being the right "season of life" for me to spend some time on what I've been posting, and I probably won't be in that frame of mind later, so hopefully it's useful sooner or later for other folks.

Let me ask the rest of you about any thoughts - this is purely an exercise at the moment. As I was thinking about other medical illnesses, and being faced with a hypothetical lack of off-the-shelf pharmaceuticals... It occured to me that a list of "simple" pharmaceuticals could be built up - more or less recapitulating 50+ year old milestones in the development of medicine.

Austere Medicine launched that idea with mention of sulfanilamide and ether.

For palliative chemotherapy of some hematologic illnesses, hydroxyurea would seem as if has a place on that list.

I have not had much experience with chloramphenicol because I'm in the US. It would seem like a natural austere antibiotic - for reasons of spectrum and penetration of different areas of the body, but also for reasons of cost and "relative" ease of production.

Any others?


Oh - BTW - I'll eventually post some more about refractometry and serum protein. I don't obtain body cavity fluids often enough to have my own material on transudates vs. exudates, so it will be limited to serum protein estimation. Clearly, the more common clinical use of refractometry is for urine specific gravity.

DrBaboon
11-27-05, 22:27
I'm thinking that I did get you a copy of "Expedient Antibiotic Production" when I got together with you, but I"m not possitive.

If I'm horning in asking, please forgive me in advance. I'd be interested in looking at that, if possible

tangent
11-28-05, 00:22
No problem, but 2 things need to happen first:

1) I need to locate it - not that bad, it's in one of several areas of a specific room...

2) I need to scan it in. This will take some time. It's a "book sized" technical report. Arround 200 pages, as I recall.

btw: the first half of dermatological preperations for the tropics is on the CD I sent you, and it talks about making derm meds. Few other things like that on that CD too...

-t

DrBaboon
11-28-05, 00:35
1) I need to locate it - not that bad, it's in one of several areas of a specific room...

Cool - I've got a room like that, too! BTDT. :wink:


the first half of dermatological preperations for the tropics is on the CD I sent you, and it talks about making derm meds. Few other things like that on that CD too...

I noticed the derm preps - I'm slowly reading through the material on the disk.

No hurry - I appreciate whatever you're able to do.

Craig
11-28-05, 01:15
No Copy Tangent, but I would love one. Thanks

Craig

tangent
11-28-05, 01:54
OK, located. "Expedient Antibiotics Production; Final Report", ORNL-6355, May 1988.

Odd - my copy is 190 pages but the CPPR indicated it's supposed to be 216 pages. Guess that includes the conclusion/summary pages. I also recall that there was supposed to be an update, but I wasn't able to get that.

Was hoping DOE had scanned it in, but the DOE Infobridge doesn't even list the report and the Comprehensive Publications and Presentations Registry (CPPR) lists it, but it's not in electronic format.

If you need it faster, there are 2 or 3 libraries in the country that have copies and you could get it via ILL. My OCLC access is down right now, or I'd tell you what libraries.

you can find the full citation by going here:

http://lib1.isd.ornl.gov:8182/TSEARCH/BASIS/tidd/fqma/tpsext/SF

and in the box opposite "report number" type in: ORNL-6355

This is not listing the update that came up in OCLC. Not sure why not.

I'm thinking one of the authors might have an electronic copy, and at least know about the update and possibly related work.

Here is one of their home pages:
http://movies.engr.utk.edu:9006/cfusion/cfdocs/che/pages/faculty/faculty/individual.cfm?facultyID=5

The report also mentions documents to send out to aid in converting various facilities that I don't think are in the report, but might be. The discussion on converting the more accessable production methods (for example, anyplace producing ethonol) is a bit light in the report, but very interesting.

I also grabbed Dermatological preparations or the tropics; A formulary of dermatological preparations and backgrounds of choices, production and dispensing. This book came out of The Scienceshop for Medicine, Universiy of Groningen, The Netherlands.

Anyway, I'll get the rest of that scanned in and the antibiotic production book too.

-t

ps: I also searched all the reports produced by each of the authors while I was at CPPR and the only thing slightly related is on ethonol solvent recovery.

tangent
11-28-05, 02:16
btw: we normally talk about drug production in the pharmacy (one of the private forums).

While we are on the topic - I remember Craig mentioned, I think it was J. Chem Edu? as a good source for articles on drug production. I don't suppose you (Craig) could come up with a list of articles/refs that you think are particularly relative. I believe I pulled one out of there on penecillin production and another on making asprin. But quite frankly, when they are mentioning drugs by their chemical names, I'm more than likely to miss them in the indexes, unless they are really common.

There was also a couple of issues of a journal devoted to dual use derm meds... have to find that... and I think all the articles and reports on makeing IV fluids have been scanned in - but I should double check.

Here is the link the the original post about this (antibiotic) book:

http://medtech.syrene.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2080


The section of the OCLC listing that has me thinking there is an update reads:

Update: 20030728 - I'm assuming that doesn't mean they updated the record, but that there was an update issued for the report. I could be wrong here.

OK, I'll get on it and kick out a pdf file for you guys.

-t

DrBaboon
11-28-05, 02:26
No joy on the link - priviledged?

tangent
11-28-05, 02:59
> No joy on the link - priviledged?

which link? ORNL, the authors homepage or the medtech one?

I'm guessing it's the last one, so added you to a couple of groups. I'm not sure which one gives you access to the private forums.

First question: can you see the private forums at the bottom of the page now and could you see them before?

I can try something different, if not, but I should be able to do this.

thanks,

-t

ps: I can navagate you to the first to if they are not resolving.

DrBaboon
11-28-05, 08:57
which link? ORNL, the authors homepage or the medtech one?

I'm guessing it's the last one, so added you to a couple of groups. I'm not sure which one gives you access to the private forums.

First question: can you see the private forums at the bottom of the page now and could you see them before?

You guessed correctly - thanks for revising my access! I see 6 more headings under private forums now.

night driver
12-02-05, 18:38
Could you drop me a copy of both??

I'll be happy to send ya my addy.....even trade a couple blank discs for them.....(or perhaps Bruce Beach's first CD??)


Chuck