What we really NEED part 2 - frugals/TreverSlyFox

[tangent]

Ok, I'm starting this 2nd thread because I think I wasn't quite too clear in the first one. Thank you to all that responded in the first thread.
Now I've gone through the responses in the first thread and here is the list of books mentioned or ones I found in my short search.

5th Edition Veterinary Values .............$29.95
The Merck Manual ..........................$35.00
PDR-2001 (3,300 pages).................New.$46.95
......................................Used.$24.99
Nurses Drug Handbook 2002..................$32.95
When there is no Doctor....................$16.00
When there is no Dentist...................$12.00
PDR for Herbal Medicines 2nd Edition.......$59.95
TOTAL (used when possible, No shipping)....$210.84

I'm sure there are many others. The PDR alone has over 3,300 pages and weights about 6 lbs, all togeather you have about 20-25 lbs of books. I just don't see too many people dragging these around in a SHTF situation PLUS the drugs to go with them. Plus not many are going to be able to afford the $210 Price Tag. I also have some doubts as to how many would really know how to use them or the time it would take to "get up to speed" to be able to use them.

I spent 6 years as a State Licensed EMT-Basic (yup, still got my jump bag) and spent those years using those skills on a County Ambulance Service, as a Fire Rescue 2nd Lt. and a Police Officer. So I'm not too un-familiar with Medicine and Medical Terminology. I'm sitting here woundering how long it would take me to "get up to speed" and then wade through this amount of material.

I think what would be helpful to the majority here is if we come to some kind of consensus of what kind of Injury-sickness we're going to be dealing with in most cases and what Vet durgs and dosages we can use as a bases. I think that if we use a dosage for the average adult male of 165 lbs, most of us could do the math to down/up size it to a dosage for a smaller or larger person.

So here is what I've come up with in a injury/disease list that I think most would incounter in a SHTF, No Doctor, No Hospital situation. Once we have a consensus on the list, those that have the information resorces can post what Vet drug and dosage would be the most likely effective treatment. This assumes that in the wound part, the wound isn't going to kill the person outright or within days (thru and thru shoulder, arm, leg type wound) but the resulting Infection most likely WILL kill them.

WOUND INFECTION.

1. Gun Shot Wound, Punture Wound

2. Major/Medium Laceration

3. Compound Fracture (exposed bone)

4. Burn 2nd/3rd degree

5. Bee/Wasp/Spider/Snake, Stings/Bites, Anaphylatic(SP?) shock (lets not get into anti-venom here)


The following is a list of Diseases, this is going to be a tough one. I think the parameters for the list should be those diseases that most people will incounter do to the living conditions of a SHTF situation. They should be treatable with Antibiotics and if not treated will "most likely" be fatal.

None of the diseases listed here should be those that have vacinations that can be obtained already ie: Mumps, Measles, Hep-B etc. If your not willing to get the shots you can get Now, then Tuff Sh!t.

DISEASE.

1. Food Poisoning

2. Dysentary

3. Pneumonia

4. Tuberculosis


The altimate goal here should be xxx number of pages (2-6 would be nice) that list the Wound/Diseases, Short symptom descriptions of each and the Vet antibiotic with the dosage regiment for a 165 lb person (if a childs dosage can't be computed from the adult dosage then a seperate listing should be given for children).

I'm hopeing we can come up with a list of maybe 5 or 6 vet meds that will cover most of this stuff. Hopefully in pill or liquid form that have decent shelf lives with out special storage (refrigeration). It would also be nice if we can come up with ONE!!!! (maybe 2) books that we can agree on that would be the BEST to have around and could be taken (BOB type) with us. Something like a Military Medical Field Manual is what I'm thinking.

I don't know if this is even possible to do, but I think we should give it a shot.

[ February 15, 2002: Message edited by: TreverSlyFox ]

[tangent]

Nurseman Wrote:

Wow, that's a big request. The problem lies in the fact that different organisms can cause the same disorder but require different therapies due to resistance in some organisms to certain antibiotics. So, without being able to identify the exact organism, you're "shootin in the dark" so to speak. Here's a link for antibiotic therapy. Notice how many different drugs are recommended for pneumonia, based on cause (i.e.: potential organism)
http://www.intmed.mcw.edu/drug/InfectionRx.html

Here's one for antibiotics and what infections they can be used for

http://www.intmed.mcw.edu/drug/antibiotics.html

I'll keep looking into this topic as it is a good one!

[tangent]

I'm going to pull the main post over to Medtech and let people over there have a shot at it. Check in there too.
http://medtech.syrene.net/forum

OK, first books:

go used, but be careful of editions - for things like Merc manuals and PDR's, used bookstores in your area generally have a few. I got my copy of the Merc Manual for $10, used. Course it's a 15th edition from 87, so it doesn't have some of the newer antibio's in it, like cipro, but it was a good value.

here's a meta-search engine for new/used book stores:
new: (lists by best deal)
http://www.addall.com/

used:
http://used.addall.com/

I looked at a copy of the Herbal PDR that was on Borders sale rack for $25 and wasn't impressed at all! Large print, and thin on information content. I looked up a number of Herbs I knew the properties of or knew were good for specific things and found information lacking, or more often completely absent! I would advise skipping this book, at least till it goes through a few more revisions and gets better. I didn't buy it, even though it was a great price.

A much better book for herbal medicine is:

Medical Botany; Plants Affecting Man's Health, by Lewis and Lewis, 1977

this in combination with a good plant field guide for your area, would be invaluable! For a taste of what's in it, go over to Medtech and look in the OBGYN forum at the Botanicals w/ obstetrical applications thread.

http://medtech.syrene.net/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=472&forum=20&0

there are a couple of books that give a good overview of pharmacology - these have been written for med students to use in studying for exams. I personally like the "made ridiculously simple" series, the clinical pharmacology and clinical microbiology books in this series would be particularly appropriate. There is a competitor writing a similar series - something bones; medical nuggets, and I've looked through some of these - they are also quite good.

I would also direct your attention to my "Motherload of Medical Books Online" post here, that directs you to a thread on medtech - ah heck, here it is:

http://medtech.syrene.net/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=270&forum=8&0

In particular, look at the MSF texts:
Clinical Guidelines and Treatment Manual (Medicines Sans Frontières, 1993)
and
Essential Drugs - Practical Guidelines (Médecins Sans Frontières)

these books can be purchased in hard copy from MSF for $20 each (and it would cost you that much in paper and ink to print them out)

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/publications/bookstore.shtml

Finally, the Special Operations Forces Medical Handbook (this is the new one, not the one that's been floating around for 20 years), is really outstanding! You can diagnose a lot if you know more, examples: Do you cough up anything? What color is it? (Colored sputum is a good indication of bacterial infection) Does coughing or deep breathing make your chest hurt? (Chest pain of pneumonia characteristically worsens with cough or deep breathing). ... What color is the stuff you cough up? (green = bacterial, blood = infection or underlying lung disease, clear or white or non-productive cough = asthma or pneumonia from mycoplasma) and so on... they also go over basic lab tests like grams stains and the anti-biotic of choice chart (the whole point of this thread, I gather, but w/ a list limited to vet meds in our case, is down to 2 pages of reduced type from the old versions 8 pages - the old version is probably the better one to refer to if limiting choices to vet meds - more things listed... in this case.

Anyway, this is a great book! there are reviews of it on AW and Medtech if you want to find out more, and I think RR was considering carrying it, you might write him and ask. Might be able to get a slight discount as it's a bit pricey - BUT WORTH IT!

hope that helps!

--------------------

...Politics then reigned in Rome. She had her two sisters, Deceit and Greed, as ministers. Under their command, Ignorance, Fanaticism and Fury were seen to prevail in Europe. They brought wretchedness everywhere they went. Reason hid in the bottom of a well, along with her daughter, Truth. No one knew where this well was. If anyone had guessed, he would have gone down into it to cut the throats of mother and daughter.

-Voltaire, Eloge historique de la Raison, 1775

Throughout the world ... we use the word 'politics' to describe the process so well: 'Poli' in Latin meaning 'many' and 'tics' meaning 'blood****ing creatures'.

[RESQDOC]

Regarding vet drugs (copied from my post on TF):
‘That being said, many forms of veterinary antibiotics are quite safe for use in humans, some are not. I have been on the receiving end of vet antibiotics several times, because that was what was available overseas. On the other hand, I recently took care of one of our local vets who started himself on some antibiotics for a “sinus infection” (which wasn’t) and become quite ill from side effects that do not occur in cattle but do in humans. To take vet meds you must know what you are treating, what the drug effects are in humans, and what preservatives or dilutants are used in the med – ignorance is not bliss. In the case of the vet, the drug belonged to the same class of drugs as Cipro, but never made it out of human trials due to liver damage problems, but works great in cattle. The vet assumed that since some drugs of this class are safe in humans, all are, which is not true of ANY drug class. Oops. Get the facts regarding the particular vet antibiotic you are considering.’

FYI the patient in question now has confirmed liver damage from the vet med.
GET THE FACTS!

[Reasonable Rascal]

This addresses my main concern about vet drugs, the similar but different ones, a la' the Cipro "class". Similar but a different formulation.

We know with certainty that *some* are identical to human drugs, while others are compounded solely for animal use. Just because it is offered off the shelf in a farm supply store does not mean it can safely used by humans.

Resqdoc makes a good point for all readers: Get the facts. Don't presume, know what you are dealing with. That is why there are no hard and fast rules to using vet drugs. They have to be taken into account on a drug by drug basis.

RR