Buck Rogers Dept #1 - portable EKG

[tangent]

As I have mentioned elsewhere, The TI-86 in combination w/ a CBL (Calculator Based Lab) offers a OTS 4 lead EKG that is "For educational use only"...

Add to this that there is a Go-Jo acupressure point you can hit, post charging your body as a capacitor, that has the same result as a defib...

[Reasonable Rascal]

On 2002-02-21 06:10, tangent wrote:

Add to this that there is a Go-Jo acupressure point you can hit, post charging your body as a capacitor, that has the same result as a defib...

Isn't this also called a pre-cordial thump?

RR

[tangent]

no - the point is at the base of the vagus nerve, between the genitals and the anal spinctor muscles.

[Javahed]

that "taint" right :grin:

Dan

[Reasonable Rascal]

Where's Motley when you need him. "Dude! That ain't right!"

That said I'm not sure I'd remember that when the time came, nor have the wherewithall to try it in front of my fellow caregivers much less family members.

RR

[Flotsam]

There is also an add-on for the palm that turns it into a pocket cardiac monitor -unfortunately the name escapes me at the moment, but I recall seeing it in a journal last year. You can get pulse oximeters that are roughly the size of the transducer (the clip type) on normal OR pulse ox's, there are also doppler u/s devices that will fit onto the end of a standard stethoscope - they work great! The bigger issue here is price (about $500).

[tangent]

can you find more details? - the u/s in particular sounds very interesting, for it's potential. note the thread on pocket "x-ray" machine - ie: imaging broken bones. as noted, the lowest cost pocket u/s unit I know of is 15K. w/ a TI approach, the calculator is ~100$, the CBL ~150$ and then sensors. but it's a multi-use device from that point. for a sony camcorder we're probably in the ~600$ range, so 500$, for a "X-Ray" type capability, is pretty reasonable. granted, that price could come way down if you're willing to weild a soldering iron and maybe do some programming...

[tangent]

RESQDOC wrote:
2. The Vagus nerve proper does not extend below the level of the transverse section of the large intestine. If you are going to stimulate that you are going to have to stick your thumb awfully far up…but wait, there’s more. There is a branch nerve, the Inferior Hypogastric plexus does extend from the sacral area and join with the pelvic plexus at the level of the ureters, this goes on to join the distal Vagus nerve. It is possible that stimulation far up inside the sacral curve at the level of S2-3-4 could stimulate this Hypogastric plexus and trigger a parasympathetic (= slow down signal) signal through to the Vagus nerve and slow a ventricular fibrillation, however the chance of this happening is unlikely, more likely to deteriorate to asystole than convert to sinus rhythm and would require stimulation up in the area of the descending colon – this is the source of the rare bradycardia seen during colonoscopies. The area between the scrotum/vagina and rectum is called the perineal raphe’ and is innervated by the perineal and pudental nerves with some involvement of the rectal nerves if you get far enough south. These connect into the spinal cord system at the sacral level and do not involve the Vagus nerve per se. There is much of value in the G-Jo system but I am going to have to disagree on this point. Stick with a precordial thump and leave the perineal raphe’ technique for more recreational endeavors.

[tangent]

OK, now that we've discussed Tangents "extensive" knowledge of neuro-anatomy, I think that's 'nuff said on that topic... ahem!

note to self: never, ever, again, trust what your paramedic tells you without checking it out yourself! (refering to a certain conversation, of several years ago...)

for reference, that is G-Jo point #8 in the G-Jo handbook... (a very rare and OOP book... - heck!, my copy is a xerox!)

and now in an attempt to shatter, whatever small shred of humility I have left...

I had also heard that tacycardia(sp?) could be treated by gently massaging the sides of the neck, where the vegus nerve SUPPOSIDLY(sp?) runs close to the surface. I had further heard that that overdoing this could send someone into cardiac arrest... is there any truth to this, ah.. "rumor" - YEAH! - that's the word I was looking for! - rumor! ;-)

[Reasonable Rascal]

What you are referring to is properly called Carotid massage, whereby the vagas nerve is massaged where it runs in close proximity to the carotid artery.

It is a well defined treatment for runaway tachycardia, one of the first line treatments in fact. It involves massaging lengthwise along the carotid on *one* side of the neck - NEVER both sides - lest you do in fact, as stated, cause the rate to slow so far as to induce arrest or at least a severe symptomatic bradycardia.

Does not always work by any means, some people are more sensitive to it than others. Once it is tried though without the desired response then more invasive techniques are called for, such as meds, pacing, synchronized shock, etc.

So you regained some semblance of face here. :smile: Good point.

RR

[tangent]

RESQDOC wrote:
9. The EKG. The TI calculator seems an inexpensive solution certainly worth considering. There is now a package available for Palm Pilot like devices, there are several for laptops, and there is a unit available from Germany that is the size of a Palm Pilot but is a stand alone EKG with three contacts on the back – you just hold it on the chest, instant three lead! You can hook addition wires to it to get more leads, 12 I think, it has a big memory, ability to uplink to a laptop or telemetry or even a printer. I have used this, it has several years of progressive modification, works great. Price? Don’t ask.

[tangent]

again, sources, model numbers, costs.... very valuable info!

PLEASE!

anyone - if you know of things like this - please jump in - even if it's off topic - for example, I have heard (and seen some) miniture lab equipment - know of any? - please start a thread! (in the lab forum, in that case... or here if it's on this topic!)

RR - WHEW! lowers egg shield I was holding in front of my face.... :smile:

[Flotsam]

Active Corporation markets the module for turning a palm handheld into a cardiac monitor (ActiveECG - $500)
http://www.activecenter.com/


Adscope markets the Stethodop
http://www.adctoday.com/it030001.htm
http://www.nicoletvascular.com/prdvssteth.htm

The fingertip pulse oximeter can be seen here
http://www.coralmed.com/index.cgi?page=pulse_ox.html&cart_id=2644138_9188

[Reasonable Rascal]

I've used the finger oximeter. Not bad, does the job for otherwise normaltensive patients. Widely used by nursing homes in my experience I presume largely due to its cost vs. the next lower priced units by BCI at $695.

The ECH attachment/program sounds very interesting. $500 won't get you much even for a 20 year out of state-of-the-art status used defib unit such as a Lifepak 5, of which there are a short gazillion of out there.

I have used a Schiller AT-4 unit. Wonderful, can even get a decent 12-lead with interp on the move (back of the ambulance) if your vehicle has a decent suspension and your technique is good, but we are talking $4K for one new and they are new enough that used models if available would still fetch a couple $K.

http://www.lifelinemedical.net/Multi%20Channel%20ECGs%20Welch%20Allyn.html

AT-4 may not be made any longer, superceded by other models shown there, but you get the picture.

RR

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